D&D 5E Dungeoncraft Interview with Mike Mearls

[overgeeked]

5e got released right at the beginning of a wave, and they had a game that largely didn't get in it's own way to ride it.

5E was well-enough designed, but even the designers are willing to admit its flaws. It wasn’t the game itself nor the design that launched it to the heights. It was also helped immeasurably by two titanic pop culture phenoms. Stranger Things and Critical Role.

 

[pukunui]

I've always thought that if you cap HP progression around lvl 6 or so. And the 6-9 th level spells are largely yeeted along with the "skip button" spells; you can design a whole game of 20 levels around the 'sweet spot'.

I played in a 5e campaign where the DM capped hit dice at 10 and only allowed Con mod hp increases for each level after that. He did the same for monsters. I thought that was fine.

He did not reduce what spells were available, though.

 

[overgeeked]

On the campaigns ending at 7th level thing: 5e should clearly just go to level 10, with some of the good ideas currently in the 11-20 range being rewritten for the 7-10 level range. It's a huge waste of space detailing all the 6-9th level spells that people never use, that could be in an optional book that has the space to more clearly support high level play. Cool high level monster ideas could have rebalanced versions for 9th-10th level characters to fight. But there is a small minority of people who do play high level who don't want to buy a second phb for that material, I suppose.

One of the many, many things 4E got right was splitting combat and non-combat spells. Keep the low-to-mid level combat spells and turn everything else into costly rituals.

 

[Divine2021]

I’m right now putting together a Tales of the Valiant game, and after reading the comments here I’m pretty sure I’m gonna end it around level 10.

 

[Leatherhead]

I'm pretty sure WoW was trying to copy EverQuest more so than D&D at the time.
But then again, EverQuest did copy a bunch of stuff from D&D so...

 

[J-H]

I played in a 5e campaign where the DM capped hit dice at 10 and only allowed Con mod hp increases for each level after that. He did the same for monsters. I thought that was fine.

He did not reduce what spells were available, though.

I'm doing that right now. The party is about to hit level 13, so the difference isn't huge...yet.
My last campaign was 3-20 (2 campaigns strung together) and I had gotten annoyed by the fact that they could blow off a couple of Fireballs as no big deal (the time they got 16 simultaneous fireballs - not so much!).

Digression into current game...
Along with that, I'm running a Baldur's Gate II campaign, so there are a lot of magic items and not many of them require attunement. They're in the Underdark and the party's AC is between 18 and 26. Higher magic item availability makes them a bit better defended than a "I have a +1 armor and shield at level 10!" character. I think they had some +2 stuff by level 6. It really doesn't make a difference.
Defences or no, the sorcerer still lost 90% of his hit points and went down in a round after he decided to facetank an ogre barbarian and got critted. The AC 26 Fighter failed two Dex saves against beholder rays and getting restrained and levitated out over an open space in a drow city, then started getting petrified. The beholder died, and the fighter fell. He survived the 170' fall with minor damage (17d6->rolled 40), but the party ended up bribing a guard and staging a "crates fell" accident to cover up the fact that he killed all the giant spiders in the spider pen he landed in.
They also assassinated an Aboleth using a vial of poison they have carried around since 4th level; the Aboleth never got to act. Then they used 2 castings of Disintegrate to help cover up the murder and made their escape while invisible.
My game last night was fun I'm one of those people who thinks the game is just getting STARTED at level 10.

 

[Lord Twig]

I think trying to put out a version of D&D that only goes to level 10 would be a mistake. One of those, "Give them what they want, and they will hate it." situations. Like the TV series that have a romantic "Will they? Won't they?" situation. Everyone says they want to see them get together, but as soon as they do, the show's ratings tank.

Even if people don't play to 20th level, they want to see it. There needs to be something that they can look at and dream of attaining, but not actually reach. They want to imagine how cool it would be to be a 20th level Paladin or Wizard. If they get everything they want at 10th level, then after a couple of campaigns they will be done. There will be nothing left to strive for.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think trying to put out a version of D&D that only goes to level 10 would be a mistake. One of those, "Give them what they want, and they will hate it." situations. Like the TV series that have a romantic "Will they? Won't they?" situation. Everyone says they want to see them get together, but as soon as they do, the show's ratings tank.

Even if people don't play to 20th level, they want to see it. There needs to be something that they can look at and dream of attaining, but not actually reach. They want to imagine how cool it would be to be a 20th level Paladin or Wizard. If they get everything they want at 10th level, then after a couple of campaigns they will be done. There will be nothing left to strive for.

I don't wholly disagree, except this attitude continues the romanticism of a glorious 1-20 campaign that lasts 3-4 years and everyone is deeply invested in their characters and it's forever memorable and epic and... A romantic fantasy that many players will never see.

I friggin hate the romanticism of the grand story campaign, because it's such a big yoke to put around the GM's neck... And honestly as the GM, I fall for the fantasy all the time as well. Start a game at level 1, or 3, or whatever, play it til you're good, and then peace out at 10! You had some good times, go make some new ones.

Why can't the game be 1-10? What about 1-12? Why 1-20, because it's been 1-20 for some decades? Ax some sacred cows!

But then I'm pulled back to reality. WotC bought DnD, Hasbro bought WotC, and they expect a return on their investment. They bought those sacred cows: six stats, saving throws, fighters, fireballs... The game is designed with the assumption that these are going to be there, and later the mechanics are designed for them- not the other way around.

So yeah, 1-20. It's a weight on those designing the game, they need to account for levels that don't really matter as much, but it's a core part of DnD that owners are likely not going to want to ditch.

 

[Charlaquin]

Truth. I don't know how many times I cried out, while playing A2e, "kite him! My heals are on cooldown. Did anyone aggro the demon? I need to farm his drops for my daily."

Yeah, I don’t know how many times I said that while playing 4e either!

 

[tetrasodium]

I think trying to put out a version of D&D that only goes to level 10 would be a mistake. One of those, "Give them what they want, and they will hate it." situations. Like the TV series that have a romantic "Will they? Won't they?" situation. Everyone says they want to see them get together, but as soon as they do, the show's ratings tank.

Even if people don't play to 20th level, they want to see it. There needs to be something that they can look at and dream of attaining, but not actually reach. They want to imagine how cool it would be to be a 20th level Paladin or Wizard. If they get everything they want at 10th level, then after a couple of campaigns they will be done. There will be nothing left to strive for.

I think that it's more important what is being targeted by that high end level 10 point. There's a huge difference between a game where the target is something like making the players "feel like they are playing level 20s"and one where the goal is something more like "feel like they have gotten their PC over the mid level hump". That's an important distinction because not every character fills out at the same pace and d&d breaks down so badly well before 20. Even e7 and it's variants tended to allow continued progression through feats magic items and so on. One of those targets is a waste, not so much with the other