D&D 5E Dungeons and Dragons (5th Edition) Class Tier List – 2019

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I've already gone over all this in another thread so you don't need to keep telling me how awesome it would make SA and rogues. I disagree and we can leave it at that.

The math is against this idea, hugely. A Rogue with a single SA keeps up with Extra Attack in damage, maybe surpasses it. A Rogue with both SA and extra attack would make all other combat characters obsolete. You can disagree with that, butnyou would be wrong.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not the person you were asking, but from my own experiences:

One campaign that I played in the bard regularly made the GWM paladin turn misses into hits with the -5/+10. Bardic Inspiration was given to the rogue before disarming traps, or any other critical skill check people had to make. (Plus guidance from the cleric.) Especially things like when everyone was trying to sneak or climb, giving it to the people most likely fail allowed the whole group to succeed.

Currently playing a glamour bard at 8th. Their subclass Bardic Inspiration gives out a temp HPs to a bunch of people plus lets them use their reaction to OA-free take a move action. Getting hurt characters out of melee, getting melee characters into the right spots, and splitting up the party when there's AoEs going off. Likely saved the party once when attacked by a dragon and let everyone scatter first round before it's breath weapon caught the whole party.

I also toss one out every round to someone in my party (not using my bonus action for anything else usually) when fighting casters so they can use it to juice a failing save. (Or make the hit, or whatever.) They all come back on a short rest, better to use them. (Before 5th when they only came back on a long rest I was less carefree with giving them out.)

Thanks, giving examples of actual play is helpful. Still, nothing you've said really seems like it would make a big difference in the long run. The dragon example is perhaps the most compelling, but unless you have tons of inspiration to dole out, it seems more luck than anything that a character happens to have it at the right time.

Also, we don't tend to max out ability scores so the bards we've had are sitting on CHA of 14 or 16 at best, and once with only a 13. Since bardic inspiration is tied to CHA modifier, maybe the bigger issue is I just haven't seen it in use enough to make it seem worthwhile?

 

[DND_Reborn]

The math is against this idea, hugely. A Rogue with a single SA keeps up with Extra Attack in damage, maybe surpasses it. A Rogue with both SA and extra attack would make all other combat characters obsolete. You can disagree with that, butnyou would be wrong.

As I said, been there, done that. And it doesn't make other combat characters obsolete at all--that is very limited thinking if you believe so. If it was a concern, there are always ways to balance it out as discussed in the other thread. At any rate, I am not about to hash it all out all over again so please stop telling me I am wrong. Thank you.

 

[Gladius Legis]

As I said, been there, done that. And it doesn't make other combat characters obsolete at all--that is very limited thinking if you believe so. If it was a concern, there are always ways to balance it out as discussed in the other thread. At any rate, I am not about to hash it all out all over again so please stop telling me I am wrong. Thank you.

But you are wrong. We've been there, done that, too. Acknowledge it.

 

[S'mon]

Also, can you provide an example of how it saved the party's ass once?

I had a Bard player save the party twice in her first session, with a Suggestion spell and a Hypnotic Pattern.

 

[Parmandur]

As I said, been there, done that. And it doesn't make other combat characters obsolete at all--that is very limited thinking if you believe so. If it was a concern, there are always ways to balance it out as discussed in the other thread. At any rate, I am not about to hash it all out all over again so please stop telling me I am wrong. Thank you.

Well, you are wrong, in terms of math. You are welcome to your preferences, but math is objective. WotC will never design an Exta Attack Rogue, because it is out of whack with the math of the game.

 

[Parmandur]

Thanks, giving examples of actual play is helpful. Still, nothing you've said really seems like it would make a big difference in the long run. The dragon example is perhaps the most compelling, but unless you have tons of inspiration to dole out, it seems more luck than anything that a character happens to have it at the right time.

Also, we don't tend to max out ability scores so the bards we've had are sitting on CHA of 14 or 16 at best, and once with only a 13. Since bardic inspiration is tied to CHA modifier, maybe the bigger issue is I just haven't seen it in use enough to make it seem worthwhile?

It might not seem like it would make a big difference to you, but it does.

 

[Blue]

Thanks, giving examples of actual play is helpful. Still, nothing you've said really seems like it would make a big difference in the long run. The dragon example is perhaps the most compelling, but unless you have tons of inspiration to dole out, it seems more luck than anything that a character happens to have it at the right time.

That particular ability (Mantle of Inspiration) isn't one that you use ahead of time, it's on the bard's turn and they use a bonus action, and up to CHR people (which can include you) get tHP plus can use their reaction to move without triggering OAs. So the only luck was that my good DEX bard beat the dragon on initiative. Which was luck, a bad roll and I wouldn't have been able to do that.

Lore bards are even moreso - their subclass bardic inspiration they get to use as a reaction to reduce an attack roll, an ability check, or damage from a foe. No need to give out anything ahead of time. The ability check is rare but surprisingly useful, especially when you make them fall while climbing or mess up a grapple check. Not as good in situations where the bard doing it is obvious though like a social situation.

Also, we don't tend to max out ability scores so the bards we've had are sitting on CHA of 14 or 16 at best, and once with only a 13. Since bardic inspiration is tied to CHA modifier, maybe the bigger issue is I just haven't seen it in use enough to make it seem worthwhile?

That could be related. My current bard was was created with point buy and as a lightfoot halfling for +2 DEX and +1 CHR I started with a 16 CHR (15+1) and DEX (14+2). Would have been the same with standard array. At 4th I went to 18 CHR, and then at 5th bard's Font of Inspiration returns them at short rests instead of long, so I have 4 per short rest. I could have raised it to 20 at 8th but I went for a feat instead. Still, 4 per rest gives me plenty to toss out. I roughly spend one on someone making a challenging skill, one Mantle of Inspiration per combat, and one for an opportunity use or if it's more encounter before we get a short rest.

Also, when you first get it it's just a d6. So a d6 two or three times per day isn't very interesting. It's not until 5th and a higher CHR that it really shines.

 

[Mort]

I'm with you. I can't imaging how he doesn't like Bardic Inspiration - it's just about one of the only non-concentration buff in 5e. They have a great spell list, especially around crowd control. Plus hands down fantastic in social situation, and a skill monkey between expertise and jack of all trades.

As a DM I've grown to loathe hypnotic pattern!

Frankly, I can't believe group hasn't yet figured out the synergy of having the cleric cast bane and then have the bard get the hypnotic pattern off.

 

[Blue]

Folks, let's keep this civil. If you don't agree with a argument, show why and back it up. Perhaps in a different thread if it's off topic for this one about rating classes for tiers. No need to attack someone just because you don't agree with what they say.