Dungeons & Dragons May Not Come Back to Greyhawk After 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide

Wizards of the Coast does not appear to have future plans for the Greyhawk setting past the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. Speaking at a press event earlier this month, Dungeons & Dragons game architect Chris Perkins explained that the inclusion of Greyhawk campaign setting material in the upcoming rulebook was meant to stand on its own. "Basically, we're saying 'Hey DMs, we're giving you Greyhawk as a foundation on which you can build your own setting stuff,'" Perkins said when asked about future Greyhawk setting material. "Whether we get back to Greyhawk or not in some capacity I cannot say, but that's our intention for now. This is the sandbox, it's Greyhawk. Go off and run Greyhawk or Greyhawk-like campaigns with this if you wish. We may not come to this version of Greyhawk for a while because we DMs to own it and play with it. This is not a campaign setting where I think we need to go in and start defining large sections of the world and adding more weight of content that DMs have to sit through in order to feel like they're running a proper Greyhawk campaign."

The 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide includes a campaign setting gazetteer focused on the Greyhawk setting, one of D&D's earliest campaign settings. The use of Greyhawk is intended to be an example for DMs on how to build a full-fledged campaign setting, with an overview of major conflicts and places to explore within the world. New maps of both Oerth and the city of Greyhawk are also included in the rulebook.

However, while it seems like Wizards isn't committing to future Greyhawk campaign setting material, Perkins admitted that the fans still have a say in the matter. "We're not so immutable with our plans that if the fans rose up and said 'Give us something Greyhawk,' that we would say 'No, never,'" Perkins said. "That won't happen."

Perkins also teased the appearance of more campaign settings in the future. "We absolutely will be exploring new D&D worlds and that door is always open," Perkins said.

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

I for one think it's probably best Wizards give Greyhawk a rest. Those 23 pages did quite enough damage IMHO. Let's meet back in a decade or so maybe?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I for one think it's probably best Wizards give Greyhawk a rest. Those 23 pages did quite enough damage IMHO. Let's meet back in a decade or so maybe?

29 pages and what damage?

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

29 pages and what damage?

Well, the world was considerably "redesigned". The map is more or less the same, but the political players are shifted massively. If you just want to do CoGH and Castle Greyhawk its fine.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well, the world was considerably "redesigned". The map is more or less the same, but the political players are shifted massively. If you just want to do CoGH and Castle Greyhawk its fine.

Did they, they seem more or less the same as the 1983 with a few minor things.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Well, the world was considerably "redesigned". The map is more or less the same, but the political players are shifted massively. If you just want to do CoGH and Castle Greyhawk its fine.

Examples? All I've seen are a few minor, reasonably sensible name changes, and reassigning a few characters' gender and species. Other than that, what has "shifted massively"?

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

Examples? All I've seen are a few minor, reasonably sensible name changes, and reassigning a few characters' gender and species. Other than that, what has "shifted massively"?

Well, okay, let me pick one. The Great Kingdom the Aerdy is the decadent remnants of the once great Holy Romanesque empire in the Flanaess, having descended into madness and then deviltry.

Old Canon (WoG Boxed Set and Beyond): The dominant Celestial Houses that have held the Malachite Throne of the Great Kingdom are Garasteth, Cranden, Rax-Nyrond, and Naelax. Currently, House Naelax is dominant, having ascended over the past century through alliances with fiendish forces and the support of the Church of Hextor. The Herzogs of the North and South Provinces, Grenell and Chelor, respectively, are both cousins of the Overking, and thus are of House Naelax. House Rax was eradicated in a bloody civil war a century and a half ago, while the Crandens have embraced the fact they may yet fade into obscurity. Meanwhile, House Garasteth, still a formidable presence, is among those waiting for the Naelax to lose the throne. They control significant territories, including Rel Astra—the original Aerdi landing point and original capital of the Great Kingdom—now ruled by Constable-Mayor Drax of House Garasteth (the kingdom's founding house).

2024 Continuity: House Naelax is the dominant house of the Great Kingdom. The North Province is now governed by Herzog Varz Grenell (presumably of House Grenell). The South Province, meanwhile, is held by Herzogin Seprenna Calyn, (of House Calyn?). Rel Astra, the ancestral home of the human Aerdy, is now in the hands of Constable-Mayor Drax, an orc.

Imagine someone rewrote the politics of Game of Thrones (with a crayon IMHO) like that for a "new edition" of the books. It'd rankle a Game of Thrones fan. Hence my pain...

It also means we start to lose even more of a common baseline in our shared storytelling in Greyhawk. Imagine this during a one-off at a gaming convention

DM: "So you travel to Zelradton to meet with the Herzog of the South Province, Chelor."
Timmy: "Wait, what, I read the DMG. The Herzog is a chick - yeah, says Herzogin Calyn here."
DM: "Timmy... we need to talk about Real Greyhawk (tm)."

But yes, if you didn't have that much investment in the setting or you only read the original 32 page Folio the changes would seem minor.

It's not all terrible - the maps are pretty good, the artwork of Emridy Meadows is pretty sweet and (desperately looks for something to be positive about) and uh... Ogon Tillit is still Theocrat? Yay?

 

[MerricB]

Imagine someone rewrote the politics of Game of Thrones (with a crayon IMHO) like that for a "new edition" of the books. It'd rankle a Game of Thrones fan. Hence my pain...

Yeah, that's an awesome analogy.

One of the weirdest things is that I see Greyhawk as being incredibly regional in terms of storyline and campaign tone. So, if I run a campaign set in the Great Kingdom I'm likely in a different genre than if I run a campaign set in the Free City of Greyhawk, and then another one set in the County of Ulek.

They have different themes, enemies, and tropes.

Greyhawk is not monolithic.

But the DMG presentation makes it monolithic. One reason I object to the "three themes" approach is because including Iuz, Elemental Evil, and (sigh) Dragons doesn't make sense for a lot of the continent. I run a lot of games in Greyhawk and Veluna. Iuz pops up a lot, Elemental Evil less so, and Dragons not at all. (Funny, that).

My County of Ulek campaign drew a lot on the tension between newer gods and the Old Faith of druidism (the ruler of Ulek was a druid), while also introducing a non-canonical threat - an invasion by the "Fhoi Myore" (drawing on Moorcock, but making them alien spirits that possessed and deformed the Fomorian giants).

The Onnwal campaign (one of the few in that part of the map) ignored Iuz and Elemental Evil and Dragons, and instead was all about the struggle against the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Looking over the Greyhawk material provided in the new DMG, it's often not horrible - and occasionally really good. But mixed with general misunderstanding of the setting and trying to shoehorn in material that doesn't fit.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

Yeah, that's an awesome analogy.

Thanks, because when I wrote I went, "Who am I kidding, no-one on ENWorld is going to agree with this."

The Onnwal campaign (one of the few in that part of the map) ignored Iuz and Elemental Evil and Dragons, and instead was all about the struggle against the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Well, actually, look at the shape of Onnwal on the map... and in doing so let's consider the far superior (IMNHO) Paizo Greyhawk map:-

The shape of Onnwal resembles the head of a dragon. In Living Greyhawk, we sometimes referred to Onnwal as 'the Dragonshead Peninsula.' Dragon Magazine Issue 299 even includes an article that uses this name for Onnwal—I should know because I wrote it.

In the Headlands, we even introduced an evil faction of Ur-Flan, allied with the dreams of Tiamat made manifest. So, in 2000, we were basically on a similar page to the 2024 DMG in depicting Tiamat's dream-sendings, dragons and draconic worship in Greyhawk. And since it was published in Dragon Magazine, Wizards of the Coast owns it. For a competent writer wanting to incorporate dragons into Greyhawk, this provided a natural starting point.

Looking over the Greyhawk material provided in the new DMG, it's often not horrible - and occasionally really good. But mixed with general misunderstanding of the setting and trying to shoehorn in material that doesn't fit.

The maps are amazing. I like the breakdown of the possible campaigns and will steal that format myself liberally. I don't like change for the sake of it, and in a Folio-level article the changes we see are largely that. I'd love to see a Director's Commentary on Greyhawk 2024 on why decisions were made, or to talk to the designers civilly over a soothing libation or three.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Thanks, because when I wrote I went, "Who am I kidding, no-one on ENWorld is going to agree with this."

Well, actually, look at the shape of Onnwal on the map... and in doing so let's consider the far superior (IMNHO) Paizo Greyhawk map:-

View attachment 384644

The shape of Onnwal resembles the head of a dragon. In Living Greyhawk, we sometimes referred to Onnwal as 'the Dragonshead Peninsula.' Dragon Magazine Issue 299 even includes an article that uses this name for Onnwal—I should know because I wrote it.

In the Headlands, we even introduced an evil faction of Ur-Flan, allied with the dreams of Tiamat made manifest. So, in 2000, we were basically on a similar page to the 2024 DMG in depicting Tiamat's dream-sendings, dragons and draconic worship in Greyhawk. And since it was published in Dragon Magazine, Wizards of the Coast owns it. For a competent writer wanting to incorporate dragons into Greyhawk, this provided a natural starting point.


The maps are amazing. I like the breakdown of the possible campaigns and will steal that format myself liberally. I don't like change for the sake of it, and in a Folio-level article the changes we see are largely that. I'd love to see a Director's Commentary on Greyhawk 2024 on why decisions were made, or to talk to the designers civilly over a soothing libation or three.

Change for change sake sums up WotCs approach to settings perfectly and it's one of two big reasons why many old school fans are upset about how WotC has handled settings post Eberron (and Eberron in one particular case).

It's why instead of the joy that announcing not one, but 2 big settings guides for FR would have produced in say even in 2020 before Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft killed the core butchered some of the beloved domains, without in character explainations, the announcement has fans worried or uncaring, they fear that WotC will be sloppy with canon again.

 

[Stuart Kerrigan]

Yes, it's a bad sign when a revived cmapaign setting is treated with the same enthusiasm as an imminent mugging. "At least they didn't take the Theocracy of the Pale. It's still there, and so's Ogon."

WotC: "We're going to reboot Mystara. It's going to be a faithful adaption, but some liberties."
Me: "I hope they don't change the Savage Coast too much."