D&D General Dungeons & Dragons Sneak Peek at Gameholecon: 50th Anniversary Adventure, Rod of Seven Parts, The Endless Stair, Tsojcanth, Barrier Peaks?

I was leaving a panel at GameHoleCon when Chris Perkins walked in and then Justice and Bill and then quite a few other WotC folk! So I stayed.

I'm glad I did because what started as a very funny trivia game challenge to the WotC folk and some of the audience soon turned into a discussion about things they are working on. Cool things. Oh and some of those questions were by Jon Peterson and were hard! I pride myself in getting a couple correct! Iron Rations for the win! Chris Lindsay talked about the DMSGuild too, and strongly hinted to me about the Manual of the Planes. I just wasn't on the same plane.

Anyway they discussed things that have already been covered, but I think with a bit more detail on particular things. This was more of a conversation than a presentation after all.

• Ron Lundeen discussed the internal playtests and that he liked it when he would see similar things discussed in the same ways in both public and private testing.
• Bill Benham discussed Jaquaysing the maps and adventures and how they are taking that more to heart. I think she was on everyone's mind at the panel, see this thread if you would, she could use our help.
• Ron also dicussed how he learned that scrolls are a secret magic item table of power and rarity for magic items generally. That's a nice hint I'll have to take a closer look at.

And then Chris talked about how their adventures take this fine line of between having too much and overwhelming new people yet also having to satisfy old hats like myself.

• The new core books will have an update to format and art like the more recent books.
• Gateway to new players was a term they kept using for the new PHB and even the DMG.
• Oh and they mentioned Tasha’s Bubbling Cauldron as a new spell, which Hollie will be delighted with.
• All three books will have mostly new art from new artists too, like from two concept artists from Obi Wan and the Avatar shows.

Then they went on to the DMG and how it'll talk about what a DM does, what are the parts of the game, the books and even how to use the DM Screen in play.

• It'll have handouts and tools to help you organize and build your notes and show you a campaign setting designed to be customized as a tutorial to make it your own and eventually build one from scratch.
• There will be new magic items to fill in more rarity niches and more cool common ones too.
• And finally we'll get the 1980 cartoon series magic items, something Chris seemed almost giddy about.

The Monster Manual will have more high level creatures and they noted things they'll put in stat blocks that were missing before, like proficiency bonus.

'Romp around the multiverse', I don't think that's a new book title, but it's a new kind of anthology book that revisits all the things they've done in D&D, a '50th anniversary book'. Chris Perkins actually ran the Ravenloft adventure at the convention, I wish I'd captured the events he ran because I'm guessing the title and a few details are in that entry. Anyone here play in his games? Care to share?

And then Chris started to display cool secrets. I'm not sure if any of these are separate books or part of the above mentioned book, but I think they are separate books the way Chris was hinting. I must also offer an apology. There was no way I could get all of these images. I was caught off guard and in a bit of awe. The last one especially is just killing me, it was wonderful and Chris refused to show me after the panel with that wry smile of his.

So here is the only clear image I got. What do you see? Give me your guesses and I'll later give you what the jokes were they made. I even got a laugh out of the crew with one!

However the missing last image was my biggest regret. It was a cute fluffy bunny on a stump...... Oh the agony! I got a selfie with Chris as a consolation prize!

OK I’ll spill more. I’m not sure but they indeed seemed to be talking about multiple books and this new book for the 50th. I think they intentionally obfuscated things.

• The key to me is that the 50th book is a visit to all the 5e adventures and the stuff that isn’t from those are either for the story to tie them together or are from other books
• The bunny was undead, a Sheep in Wolfs clothing. It was a brand new painting and I didn’t recognize the artist.
• My joke was that the Rod would fall apart way to easily, as they tried to hint what it was.

So from what they were taking about I think.

• A D&D 50th Anniversary book
• An Endless Stair book
• A Rod of Seven parts book
• And Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
• Oh and Tsojcanth

Please note those are all guesses by me. Oh and Tsojcanth.

Chris did say that the D&D 50th book had been announced but I can’t find anything on it.

 

[Charlaquin]

It could be that Innis much higher with this print run. And much higher for something like this can be "we have to replace 1 in every 900 instead of every 1 in 1000? Heads will roll for this."

Also, unlike Magic, these cards are way less compartmentalized. If yoy get a run of bin cards it's like half the deck. Woth Magic cards, it ia dispersed more and individual cards usually matter than the whole (for most products). It really quite different in design and function.

Exactly

 

[mamba]

The experience they do have printing cards is in significantly larger runs, and where foiled cards are a relatively small portion of the run, which appears randomly and in small quantities in their product. Printing a product that contains 66 fixed foiled cards is something different, and they may not have realized that what’s an acceptable defect rate for 1 card out of 15 in a $5 booster pack is absolutely not an acceptable rate for 66 cards out of 66 in a $100 boxed set.

this I would expect them to catch, noticing that if one card in a pack is bent every 100th time in a pack containing one foil card, that basically amounts to every other pack of 66 such cards containing at least one is simple math

Also, the larger size of the cards compared to what they have experience printing may have contributed as well

it might, and this too could have come up, I might even go as far as should, if they know anything at all about the manufacturing process and do not simple source the whole manufacturing out and send over their designs and receive printed cards back.

Woth Magic cards, it ia dispersed more and individual cards usually matter than the whole (for most products). It really quite different in design and function

this should not come as a surprise to WotC either

Maybe I am excepting too much from WotC, but it sure feels like these are things that should have been considered by someone competent. Maybe they were and the manufacturer assured them there would be no issue, who knows.

As I said, my main ‘issue’ is the excuse of saying ‘we do not have much experience printing cards for D&D’, the ‘for D&D’ part should not really matter, and the rest by itself is patently false…

 

[Parmandur]

this should not come as a surprise to WotC either

Maybe I am excepting too much from WotC

Yes for the last. I don't expect them to not have issues with toy manufacturing that I have seen up close and personal with product lines people rely on in life or death situations.

 

[Parmandur]

In the interest of bumping the OP and some speculation, I dug back and found some numbers I ran about Yawning Portal and Ghosts of Saltmatsh  way back, when I was mulling the idea of a WG module book, the numbers aren't necessarily accurate with newer word counts and fonts, etc(Hommlet, Elemental Evil, Tsojcanth, Thatizdun, and...Maure Castle, maybe City of Dkulls. Thought Barrier Peaks was off the table):


Parmandur said:
Easily done: T1-4 take place geographically just across Furondy and Veluna, and bring the characters to precisely the right level range by the end of the Temple of Elemental Evil, which happily enough can be tied to both Tharizdun and Iggwilv. In point of fact, S4 had been conceived of as WG3, with T1 to be changed to WG1 with the Temple of Elemental Evil being WG2.

For an even more climactic fight, have the reprint end with confronting Iuz across the way by reprinting City of Skulls, and connect it all with some regional Gazeeter material....
Click to expand...maybe, but putting T1-4, LCT, and FTT all in one book would result in one HUGE book...

David Howery said:
maybe, but putting T1-4, LCT, and FTT all in one book would result in one HUGE book...

Smaller than you might think. First point is, that the old edition reprints in GoS and TftYP have taken up significantly fewer pages than the original modules (different print, page size etc.). Just taking the face page count though:

T1-4 with 128 page book and 16 page map supplement
S4 with two 32- page books, one of them primarily a Bestiary in my understanding, and a folder map
WG4 with 32 pages & folder map

So that's ~240 pages in the old format on the face of it.

In contrast, for Ghosts of Saltmarsh, we had:

U1 was a 32 page module with folder map, but takes up 23 pages in GoS
U2 was a 32 page module with folder map, bit takes up 26 pages in GoS
U3 was a 48 page book with foldout map, but takes up 29 pages in GoS

So, ~116 pages (including poster maps) of 1E material became 78 pages of 5E material, roughly two-thirds of the space used. Therefore, we can conclude that T1-4, S3, and WG4 would be a comfortably sized 5E book, with loads of room for other material.

 

[Parmandur]

Hwre ia the proper Link, and a bit more of what I wrote back when:

Looking at Ghosts of Saltmarsh, with the extensive additions of frame material, put a Marklands Gazeeter and sandbox in there, with suggested connections.

Not really all that distant geographically, per the '83 box set (references to WG1 and WG3 in the original text on page 30):

"The Village of Hommlet (WG1): Thetlegendary village is located in hex 04-98 near Verbobonc."
"The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (WG3):This strange magical hoard is hidden somewhere on the border between Perrenland and Ket, in hex E5-88."
"The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun(WG4): This desolate and forbidding edifice can be found near the lost caverns, in hex F5-88."

using the Pythagorean theorem, I've determined that the Village of Hommet is about 198 Leagues from the Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, or 20 hexes. A fair trek, but the environment is mostly peaceful and Lawful in nature, but with enough to make a good sandbox.

 

[Parmandur]

So, it might require a big book...but there are indications that 5E books 2024 might be chonkier, based on what theybare saying about the Core three...

Bit I really think a Gygax-centric Adventure anthology would be just about the perfect 50th Anniversary celebratory product that I can think of. Be interesting to see if that does come about.

 

[mamba]

Bit I really think a Gygax-centric Adventure anthology would be just about the perfect 50th Anniversary celebratory product that I can think of. Be interesting to see if that does come about

I would certainly be more interested in that than a plane-traveling Vecna that messes with everything again

 

[Parmandur]

I would certainly be more interested in that than a plane-traveling Vecna that messes with everything again

Well, that one is happening for sure. The question is are they doing something a little more low-key with S3 and S4, or are they part of that? I think both as seprate products would be phenomenal, providing some different play experiences for differing tastes.

 

[Parmandur]

Fron Shannon Applecline's history of WG4, a bit about Gygax's original intended series:

What About WG1-3!? Though "Tharizdun" was labeled as WG4, there were no previous "WG" adventures (and never would be). In the Glossography for the World of Greyhawk boxed set (1983), TSR indicated that T1: "The Village of Hommlet" (1979) was meant to be WG1 and that S4: "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" was meant to be WG3. Meanwhile, in Dragon #71 (March 1983), Gygax revealed that the adventure formerly known as T2: "The Temple of Elemental Evil" was to be WG2 - but he now said it was to be published in two parts.

As it happens, Temple of Elemental Evilwould be delayed a few years more and eventually published as the T1-4 supermodule (1985).

In the forward to Dungeons of Dread (2013), Lawrence Schick further underlined the continuity between the modules intended to be WG1-3, writing, "there's evidence that Gary considered Tsojcanth part of a longer Greyhawk campaign, placing the adventure between T1-T4: The Temple of Elemental Evil and WG4: 'The Forgotten Temple oF Tharizdun'." When seen in that light, the four modules do form a nice adventuring continuity: T1 is "introductory to novice level"; T1-4 carries that up as high as level 8 (and possiblly higher); S4 runs levels 6-8; and WG4 goes from levels 8-10.

In his "Greyhawk Grognard" blog, Joseph Bloch suggests that Iuz might have been the lynchpin holding the arc together, since he's involved with the Temple of Elemental Evil and is also the son of Iggwilv from "Caverns."

However, when TSR organized their own Greyhawk "adventure path" in 1985-86, starting from T1-4, they didn't use the arc that Schick suggested. Instead, they continued from T1-4 into A1-4, then the GDQ series. The result has even looser connections, as well as some chronological problems related to Lolth.

A Sort of Sequel. "Tharizdun" is connected at least geographically to S4: "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth"; Gnome Valley, a location that players encounter in "Caverns," is raided by norkers in WG4. This raid gets the PCs on the road to Tharizdun's Temple, where the norkers lair.

This connection puts the two adventures in extremely close proximity, both set in the Yatil Mountains near Perrenland. Unfortunately, the spatial proximity of the two adventures isn't supported that well by the adventures' production styles, which include wilderness maps in dramatically different scales.

In a much later interview, Gygax indicated that the mage Tsojocanth (who originally created the caverns from S4) defeated the cult of Tharizdun and acted as a conduit of power for the good deities to imprison Tharizdun itself. That's exactly the sort of detail that could have really tied the two adventures together -- but it's unfortunately absent from the adventures themselves (but now you know and can run the adventures yourself accordingly!).

Adventure Origins. When writing of the origins of "Tharizdun," Gygax said, "The [original] adventurers discovered Gnome Vale in the course of seeking the 'Caverns'. Later, they returned for rest and recuperation after suffering severe damage exploring the latter place. Only three or four of the original party actually journeyed to the 'Temple', because, as is usual with any group, some of its number were not on hand when it was time to adventure."

Based on the playtester lists, the players in common were Luke Gygax, David Kuntz, Richard Kuntz, and Sonny Savage. Because "Caverns" was originally playtested prior to the WinterCon V (1976) tournament, we can guess that "Tharizdun" has a similar pedigree, and thus might have been six years old by the time it was actually published as WG4.

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

 

[mamba]

Well, that one is happening for sure.

sure, but that does not mean I am interested in it

The question is are they doing something a little more low-key with S3 and S4, or are they part of that? I think both as seprate products would be phenomenal, providing some different play experiences for differing tastes.

I have a hard time seeing them do anything else with S3 and S4. They won’t release them individually and there is no other anthology they could go in (in 2024) that I am aware of.

Personally I am not looking for a straight reprint, update them, expand them, tie everything together better….