Greyhawk setting material

Parmandur

Legend
I owned Forgotten Temple back in the day, and I remember it as an absolutely awful module. One big fight and then nothing but mopping up. The pacing was atrocious. But, then again, that might just be my memory playing tricks.

I'm not sure that focusing on Drow would be a good way to go. I think that Forgotten Realms have pretty much sucked that idea dry. Even the idea of redoing the old GH Drow city isn't really going to distinguish it too much from FR. Yes, I KNOW there are differences, but, I'm not sure if the perception of those differences would be enough. It's an underground city matriarchy led by dominatrix dark elves. That's an idea that really has been beaten to death.

I'd suggest that focusing on stuff that you don't see in FR might be a better way to go. The Paizo Dungeon adventures - Seeds of Sehan for example - with its body horror, use of somewhat more esoteric monsters (yak folk monks?) might be a better direction. Play to GH's strengths rather than try to directly compete.
There was one book released in 2016, years ago, that didn't primarily focus on the Drow. Like NBC used to say, even a repeat can be New.
 
I owned Forgotten Temple back in the day, and I remember it as an absolutely awful module. One big fight and then nothing but mopping up. The pacing was atrocious. But, then again, that might just be my memory playing tricks.
It was written with the expectation of a pitched battle at the gates - which is rather more realistic than players fighting monsters one room at a time without the alarm being raised!

It could be stealthed though.
 

Hussar

Legend
It was written with the expectation of a pitched battle at the gates - which is rather more realistic than players fighting monsters one room at a time without the alarm being raised!

It could be stealthed though.
Oh, I understand how it was written. Totally get it. But, there's the issue right there. "More realistic" does not necessarily equate to a better experience. I found the module largely a failure the few times I ran it. Actually, to be honest, the lead up to the module - trying to find the Temple was the fun part of the module. After that it was just a giant grindfest fight followed up with lots and lots of empty rooms.
 

David Howery

Adventurer
I have to say that I would absolutely adore a 5E conversion of The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.
this seems like it would fit in pretty well with the way WOTC is putting out 5E campaign books. I'm not totally familiar with all they're doing, but I keep hearing that they are set up as 'start out as 1st level, work your way up to high level, face off against the Big Bad, all inside this one book'. LCT/FTT would work fine for this... just have to work in some low level stuff to start out with, likely some other cavern complexes in the same mountains to fill out the book, etc.
 

Parmandur

Legend
this seems like it would fit in pretty well with the way WOTC is putting out 5E campaign books. I'm not totally familiar with all they're doing, but I keep hearing that they are set up as 'start out as 1st level, work your way up to high level, face off against the Big Bad, all inside this one book'. LCT/FTT would work fine for this... just have to work in some low level stuff to start out with, likely some other cavern complexes in the same mountains to fill out the book, etc.
Easily done: T1-4 take place geographically just across Furondy and Veluna, and bring the characters to precisely the right level range by the end of the Temple of Elemental Evil, which happily enough can be tied to both Tharizdun and Iggwilv. In point of fact, S4 had been conceived of as WG3, with T1 to be changed to WG1 with the Temple of Elemental Evil being WG2.

For an even more climactic fight, have the reprint end with confronting Iuz across the way by reprinting City of Skulls, and connect it all with some regional Gazeeter material....
 

David Howery

Adventurer
Easily done: T1-4 take place geographically just across Furondy and Veluna, and bring the characters to precisely the right level range by the end of the Temple of Elemental Evil, which happily enough can be tied to both Tharizdun and Iggwilv. In point of fact, S4 had been conceived of as WG3, with T1 to be changed to WG1 with the Temple of Elemental Evil being WG2.

For an even more climactic fight, have the reprint end with confronting Iuz across the way by reprinting City of Skulls, and connect it all with some regional Gazeeter material....
maybe, but putting T1-4, LCT, and FTT all in one book would result in one HUGE book... :)
 

Parmandur

Legend
maybe, but putting T1-4, LCT, and FTT all in one book would result in one HUGE book... :)
Smaller than you might think. First point is, that the old edition reprints in GoS and TftYP have taken up significantly fewer pages than the original modules (different print, page size etc.). Just taking the face page count though:

  • T1-4 with 128 page book and 16 page map supplement
  • S4 with two 32- page books, one of them primarily a Bestiary in my understanding, and a folder map
  • WG4 with 32 pages & folder map

So that's ~240 pages in the old format on the face of it.

In contrast, for Ghosts of Saltmarsh, we had:

  • U1 was a 32 page module with folder map, but takes up 23 pages in GoS
  • U2 was a 32 page module with folder map, bit takes up 26 pages in GoS
  • U3 was a 48 page book with foldout map, but takes up 29 pages in GoS

So, ~116 pages (including poster maps) of 1E material became 78 pages of 5E material, roughly two-thirds of the space used. Therefore, we can conclude that T1-4, S3, and WG4 would be a comfortably sized 5E book, with loads of room for other material.
 
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David Howery

Adventurer
So, ~116 pages (including poster maps) of 1E material became 78 pages of 5E material, roughly two-thirds of the space used. Therefore, we can conclude that T1-4, S3, and WG4 would be a comfortably sized 5E book, with loads of room for other material.
okay, size wouldn't be a problem. But you'd have to rework some of the stuff... ATM, the T series and LCT/LTT don't really have anything tying them together. Plus, the two regions are widely separated. Shouldn't be hard to do that though...
 

Parmandur

Legend
okay, size wouldn't be a problem. But you'd have to rework some of the stuff... ATM, the T series and LCT/LTT don't really have anything tying them together. Plus, the two regions are widely separated. Shouldn't be hard to do that though...
Looking at Ghosts of Saltmarsh, with the extensive additions of frame material, put a Marklands Gazeeter and sandbox in there, with suggested connections.

Not really all that distant geographically, per the '83 box set (references to WG1 and WG3 in the original text on page 30):

"The Village of Hommlet (WG1): Thetlegendary village is located in hex 04-98 near Verbobonc."
"The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (WG3):This strange magical hoard is hidden somewhere on the border between Perrenland and Ket, in hex E5-88."
"The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun(WG4): This desolate and forbidding edifice can be found near the lost caverns, in hex F5-88."
 

Parmandur

Legend
@David Howery using the Pythagorean theorem, I've determined that the Village of Hommet is about 198 Leagues from the Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, or 20 hexes. A fair trek, but the environment is mostly peaceful and Lawful in nature, but with enough to make a good sandbox.
 

David Howery

Adventurer
@David Howery using the Pythagorean theorem, I've determined that the Village of Hommet is about 198 Leagues from the Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, or 20 hexes. A fair trek, but the environment is mostly peaceful and Lawful in nature, but with enough to make a good sandbox.
Doable, but you could probably do LCT/LTT all on it's own... those two dungeons are set within a big range of mountains and hills where you could put a lot of other encounter areas, all leading to the grand finale of facing Tharizdun (maybe)… just have to tie it all together. TEE isn't quite set up so well... there's the moathouse, the temple itself, and not much else around it...
 

Parmandur

Legend
Doable, but you could probably do LCT/LTT all on it's own... those two dungeons are set within a big range of mountains and hills where you could put a lot of other encounter areas, all leading to the grand finale of facing Tharizdun (maybe)… just have to tie it all together. TEE isn't quite set up so well... there's the moathouse, the temple itself, and not much else around it...
But then you are back to square one, needing lower level intro material, to get to Level 8, which ToEE fits perfectly. Realistically, both would be essentially seperate mini-campaigns, but they fit well, and they will want to reprint both sets eventually anyways, as they are Top 30 of all time modules per Dungeon.
 

David Howery

Adventurer
But then you are back to square one, needing lower level intro material, to get to Level 8, which ToEE fits perfectly. Realistically, both would be essentially seperate mini-campaigns, but they fit well, and they will want to reprint both sets eventually anyways, as they are Top 30 of all time modules per Dungeon.
I was thinking people would like some new material along with the classic LCT/FTT modules. Still, your way is definitely feasible. Mostly, you'd just have to come up with some ways to tie the TEE and LCT into Tharizdun and make FTT into the finale..
 

Parmandur

Legend
I was thinking people would like some new material along with the classic LCT/FTT modules. Still, your way is definitely feasible. Mostly, you'd just have to come up with some ways to tie the TEE and LCT into Tharizdun and make FTT into the finale..
In the WotC Elemental Evil stuff from 3E, Tharizdun is the Elder Elemental Eye and the real cause of the shenanigans to begin with, and Iggwilv is the mother of Iuz who is also tied into the Temple itself. While I think they would use the older modules, using the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil from material regarding Tharizdun would make sense.
 

David Howery

Adventurer
In the WotC Elemental Evil stuff from 3E, Tharizdun is the Elder Elemental Eye and the real cause of the shenanigans to begin with, and Iggwilv is the mother of Iuz who is also tied into the Temple itself. While I think they would use the older modules, using the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil from material regarding Tharizdun would make sense.
ah. I haven't read anything from the 3E days, other than the first core rulebooks; wasn't all that impressed with it, 3E was pretty much the end of my D&D days (along with getting moved around a lot by my last job and not being able to stay in a group)…
 

Sword of Spirit

Adventurer
Why not both? The faux-Medieval stuff makes the weird that much weirder when it goes down.
This is absolutely what I had running around in my unconscious without knowing it. There is a creative power in having a baseline that doesn't have dragonborn (just using that as a poster-child for new school fantasy species explosion), and then having whatever weird stuff show up occasionally. Dragonborn (or draconian) crash landing from a space ship (or Spelljamming vessel)? Cool! Every new race having a population on Oerth just because it exists as a player option in 5e? Boo, hiss, boo!

If I had my druthers (what are druthers, and why would I want them?) every setting would be rebooted to its original recipe for 5e, and then they'd give advice for advancing the timeline in a variety of ways (including for each edition's version), including references to other books from older editions that are most useful for those eras. The official adventures would also follow this paradigm. So all Forgotten Realm adventures are based on the Grey Box, and then have a page or two in an appendix for setting them post Time of Troubles, post Spellplague, post Second Sundering. Sure, they could make a bigger appendix for setting them in the latest published era. But really, this would be nothing but win for sales. They seem to imply that they are going for timeline agnosticism in the FR adventures, but then they bake-in the 5e elements in such a way that it's a major hassle to take them out. I'm never going to buy most of the Forgotten Realms adventures in 5e because of this, whereas I would likely buy several of them if I didn't have to try to revert the timeline a couple hundred years to make them useful in game.
 

Parmandur

Legend
ah. I haven't read anything from the 3E days, other than the first core rulebooks; wasn't all that impressed with it, 3E was pretty much the end of my D&D days (along with getting moved around a lot by my last job and not being able to stay in a group)…
Heh, I started playing around the time Return to the Temple if Elemental Evil came out. Pretty sure Monte Cook made Tharizdun the real power behind the elemental cults because of the implied links with the original with WG4.
 

Parmandur

Legend
This is absolutely what I had running around in my unconscious without knowing it. There is a creative power in having a baseline that doesn't have dragonborn (just using that as a poster-child for new school fantasy species explosion), and then having whatever weird stuff show up occasionally. Dragonborn (or draconian) crash landing from a space ship (or Spelljamming vessel)? Cool! Every new race having a population on Oerth just because it exists as a player option in 5e? Boo, hiss, boo!

If I had my druthers (what are druthers, and why would I want them?) every setting would be rebooted to its original recipe for 5e, and then they'd give advice for advancing the timeline in a variety of ways (including for each edition's version), including references to other books from older editions that are most useful for those eras. The official adventures would also follow this paradigm. So all Forgotten Realm adventures are based on the Grey Box, and then have a page or two in an appendix for setting them post Time of Troubles, post Spellplague, post Second Sundering. Sure, they could make a bigger appendix for setting them in the latest published era. But really, this would be nothing but win for sales. They seem to imply that they are going for timeline agnosticism in the FR adventures, but then they bake-in the 5e elements in such a way that it's a major hassle to take them out. I'm never going to buy most of the Forgotten Realms adventures in 5e because of this, whereas I would likely buy several of them if I didn't have to try to revert the timeline a couple hundred years to make them useful in game.
For the big Adventure books, changing them to work with the 3E Campaign Setting is pretty trivial.

Based on Saltmarsh, they'll have room for Tieflings and Dragonborn and other 5E-isms (random crew charts, for example), but more of a old timey expected set-up
 

David Howery

Adventurer
Heh, I started playing around the time Return to the Temple if Elemental Evil came out. Pretty sure Monte Cook made Tharizdun the real power behind the elemental cults because of the implied links with the original with WG4.
which makes you wonder how the finale of this proposed module would go. Taking on an out and out god seems a bit much. Maybe the PCs ultimately have to prevent his return by his cultists, who have summoned up Something Big And Bad to bring it about...
 

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