Duration of Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, from my perspective, buff spells aren't meant to last through an entire dungeon crawl. Why? Because that would effectively mean the character's stats are ALWAYS 2-5 points higher than they should be. If the magic lasts as long as it's needed (i.e. the dungeon crawl), then the character will have it on the whole time. So what's the point in having magic items or even having lower stats for that matter? I can see having buff spells to get you through the whole battle, but not the whole dungeon.

It sounds like you have a vision problem then. Even minute per level buffs can often last throughout an entire "dungeon" as long as it is relatively small and the party kills first, hustling between battles, and searches only after everything is dead. Ten minute/level buffs will routinely last through annihilating an entire lizardman village, sneaking through the troglodyte warrens, attacking the cultists' secret base, storming the lair of the gnolls, or even exploring the ruins of a castle. As long as you:
1. Know that the dungeon is coming
2. Know when you're going to arrive
3. Know roughly how big it is
4. Have the potential to cast the necessary spells (maybe have the potential to cast minute/level spells twice)
characters WILL generally be buffed for an entire dungeon crawl.

What short duration buffs are not suitable for is:
1. Overland adventures where encounters may or may not occur on any given day.
2. City adventures where short battles are generally interspersed with hours of travel or investigation.
3. Exceptionally large dungeons where exploration takes precedence over battle
4. Unexpected battles (for instance, the orc raiding party that comes back just as you're leaving the dungeon or the bandits who saw adventurers heading into the sinkhole and decided to ambush them when they came out).
5. Defense. If you've got to guard the entryway from an enemy that could attack any time within the next day, short term buffs won't help.

Dungeon Crawls are the worst sample adventure for your case. (Although, it's worth pointing out that, even in 3.0, "all day" buffs rarely were literally all day and consequently were only about 50-60% likely to be up at any given point in an overland adventure (before level 12 or so but at that point most characters in standard magic campaigns had items anyway) and were only 30-50% likely to be active for the standard midnight ambush situations.

And, IMC, it was buff-central every morning. BS, CG, BE, ES, FC every morning - often on the same character. It was ridiculous and it did indeed eat up all the 2nd-lvl spells. Hmmm? Need a cure mod? Sorry, I buffed myself up this morning. Too bad for you...

That's just silly. First of all, by the time a cleric could conceivably have all of those spells up during the morning buff routine (and what cleric wants Fox's Cunning anyway?), Cure Moderate spells aren't what characters need in combat. They need Cure Serious or Cure Critical Wounds spells. And the cleric has them.

Second, as I pointed out before, the only real way in which that has changed is that the cleric now has Cure Mods available but is slightly shorter on the higher level Cure Serious (Magic Vestment) and Cure Critical (Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, etc). If the cleric wants to spend all his spells buffing himself, he still can--especially in the dungeon crawl situations that seem to be the focus of your attention. In fact, the cleric who focusses upon buffing himself is likely to have even fewer spells available for healing since he'll have to pack extras of his shorter duration buffs in case they run out. (Such a cleric is, IMO, an idiot for that exact reason, but the cleric who spent all his spells on buffs was foolish even in 3.0).

 

[Eldragon]

Even minute per level buffs can often last throughout an entire "dungeon" ... As long as you:
1. Know that the dungeon is coming
2. Know when you're going to arrive
3. Know roughly how big it is
4. Have the potential to cast the necessary spells (maybe have the potential to cast minute/level spells twice)
characters WILL generally be buffed for an entire dungeon crawl.

What short duration buffs are not suitable for is:
1. Overland adventures where encounters may or may not occur on any given day.
2. City adventures where short battles are generally interspersed with hours of travel or investigation.
3. Exceptionally large dungeons where exploration takes precedence over battle
4. Unexpected battles (for instance, the orc raiding party that comes back just as you're leaving the dungeon or the bandits who saw adventurers heading into the sinkhole and decided to ambush them when they came out).
5. Defense. If you've got to guard the entryway from an enemy that could attack any time within the next day, short term buffs won't help.

You are absolutely correct, I agree 100%. But this is also the problem. You posted 6 scenarios under which just about all DnD encounters fall. IMHO a good campaign will feature an even distribution of all 6 of these types of encounters. Unfortunately the short duration 3.5 buffs are only useful for 1 of them. In other words, the short duration buffs are useful for 17% of the battles the players may get into. Compare that to spells like magic missile, greater magic weapon, and fireball. Spells that are useful in nearly every battle. Even when I do know the above 4 points, the party is at such an advantage over the enemy i'm not sure the 1min/lvl buffs will make much difference.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't think we disagree on anything here. I too think the 1 min/lvl animal buffs are not worth the paper they're printed on for their marginal utility in 1/6 of the encounters that you will face in D&D.

However, I think it points to the utter boneheadedness of the move that it didn't even accomplish one of the goals it set out to do--

-prevent buffs from lasting through "an entire dungeon" (they still often do... when you're dealing with a small dungeon)
-Eliminate the morning buffing session (they didn't even come close)
-Simplify record keeping and character calculation (they made it more complex)

Furthermore, their utility is also diminished by the increased focus on statbuffing items caused by the reduced duration. If characters get +2 statbuffers by level 6, they're a lot less likely to care about the effective +2 increase they get from an anibuff spell. By the time it might be worth prepping a spell that will be of limited use 1/6 of the time, that use will be even more limited....

You are absolutely correct, I agree 100%. But this is also the problem. You posted 6 scenarios under which just about all DnD encounters fall. IMHO a good campaign will feature an even distribution of all 6 of these types of encounters. Unfortunately the short duration 3.5 buffs are only useful for 1 of them. In other words, the short duration buffs are useful for 17% of the battles the players may get into. Compare that to spells like magic missile, greater magic weapon, and fireball. Spells that are useful in nearly every battle. Even when I do know the above 4 points, the party is at such an advantage over the enemy i'm not sure the 1min/lvl buffs will make much difference.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I like the new durations on these spells. Before they were way too powerful for 2nd level spells.

Remember people, Wizards can, and are encouraged to, create new spells. If you find the durations on these spells too short then simply design a 4th or 5th level verison that lasts 1 hour/level or provides a higher bonus. The same goes for Haste. If you want an extra spellcasting action make a 6th level version called "[Insert character name here]'s Greater Haste" that gives one creature an extra standard action of any type each round.

It's that simple.

 

[Darklone]

Old durations baaaad.

 

[Henry]

Speaking as a former player of a cleric/fighter, I hated the change. Every morning, my character was a firm believer in (as one poster put it) "shave, , shower, bull's strength". Thanks to Extend Spell, I NEVER started the day without Bull's strength and Endurance; after my 10th cleric level, I never finished the day without them either. Would YOU start the day adventuring without your girdle of giant strength and amulet of health if you owned them?

Speaking as an objective gamer and inveterate Rules Lawyer, I recognize the need for the change. They are EASILY used as a crutch with their long durations; saying you can dispel the spells is one thing, but a DM doesn't have the option of NPC's dispelling them often and maintaining plausiblity.

Both the "buffs" and Haste suffered the same abuses, and objectively I can say they are great changes. I'm just sorry they're gone.

 

[Darklone]

I heard from some groups that the wizard upon reaching level 7 had to prepare Empowered bullsstrengths for the groups hack&slashers in all their level 4 slots... because nothing else was similar effective

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That all depends upon the group's makeup.

I played in one campaign where, in 3.0, my wizard's only third level spell was Haste to haste the fighters. It was so much more effective than anything else he could do it wasn't funny. Of course, said fighter was a Large minotaur with a 22 or so base strength who was two levels higher than the next most powerful party member so perhaps that's not too surprising.

If the party depends upon high powered hack and slashers, then that was a good strategy. (Although, realistically, we should all admit that 4th level is not a particularly good level for arcane offensive spells either. Enervation and Evard's Black Tentacles are probably the best and neither of them are straight damage dealers). Had the party had a single classed rogue, I'd bet that Greater Invisibility would be just as good. If the party were short on front liners, an empowered Endurance and Evard's, Wall of Ice, or another area denial spell would probably be better. And, if the wizard in question were a max int Wizard/Elemental Savant with Greater Spell Focus and Sculpt Spell, sculpted Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Icy Bursts would probably have been very effective too. Wizards could make some very good use of Polymorph Other too. Effective spell choice always depends upon party makeup.

IN 3.0, empowered stat buffs were one effective strategy (at least as long as you didn't roll a "1" on the d4--2s weren't too impressive either). They were not the only effective strategy by a long shot though.

I heard from some groups that the wizard upon reaching level 7 had to prepare Empowered bullsstrengths for the groups hack&slashers in all their level 4 slots... because nothing else was similar effective

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

If you routinely have players blowing through entire dungeons during the duration of a single casting of a 1/min buff, then your players aren't properly afraid.

 

[Yokiboy]

Has anyone else changed this around? I agree it used to be far too long, but now it seems far too SHORT. I was thinking of saying these spells will last for two encounters, as long as they take place in the same day. Thought? Would one encounter work better?

Speaking of the buff spells, would you allow Bear's Endurance to help improve a Fort Save vs Level Drain? I didn't.

TTFN,

Yokiboy