Dwarves and other races

[Lord Ravinous]

Honestly I would say the opposite. When you're walking around in full plate you won't miss the DEX. On the other hand, I'm constantly stuggling with Dwarven Cleric and Paladin builds because of the hit to CHA. You could get so much more milage out of a Dwarf if you could throw in some Paladin levels, Turning, and the Divine feat chain more efficiently.

From a min/max perspective, I'd rather have a high CHA than DEX, because the only DEX that I really want is a 12.

Same here, Turning Undead is rough with my 10 Charisma, I don't find the race to be that overkill, most of their abilites havn't even come up yet. Yes, I use a Dwarven Waraxe, but in the scheme of things 1d10 and 1d8 doesn't make that big of a difference at 10th level. The dwarf balances out in the long run.

But to "balance" stuff a little, and apease the masses, just give Half-Orc the use Orc Doubleaxe as a martial weapon. The Elf is just fine the way it is, cause I think they're just as exploitable as people scream that dwarves are...just that they have to take Wizard to exploit it, 4 hour trance, Secret Doors, +2 dex (more AC), Free Swords and Bows (instead of quarterstaffs and X-bows), Low-light vision, etc. As for Dwarf, if you hate it THAT bad, make the player chose between Uragosh or Dwarven Waraxe at time of creation, and they'll only be proficient w/ the one they chose.

Very messy post, but I'm in a hurry, sorry.

 

[Zaruthustran]

3.5 went one step too far with the armor and urgosh and waraxe. A 2 point hit to DEX instead of Charisma might make up for it.

IMG i yanked the Free waraxe and urgosh and instead gave dwarves one medium and martial axe, hamer or pick like the elves and the long sword bit.

I'd much rather see a dex penalty than a charisma penalty. It's just strange that there are no Dwarf Paladins, yet Dwarves are traditionally Lawful Good.

In fact, I'd have to say the -2 Cha penalty for dwarves is my #1 complaint about D&D third edition.

-z

 

[Dark Jezter]

I'd much rather see a dex penalty than a charisma penalty. It's just strange that there are no Dwarf Paladins, yet Dwarves are traditionally Lawful Good.
-z

If you're playing 2e AD&D, then you're correct: There are no dwarf paladins.

In 3e, dwarves are the second most-likely race to become paladins, right after humans (and half-elves). In the Forgotten Realms, dwarf paladins of Moradin carry out the will of the dwarven pantheon.

 

[Zaruthustran]

If you're playing 2e AD&D, then you're correct: There are no dwarf paladins.

In 3e, dwarves are the second most-likely race to become paladins, right after humans (and half-elves). In the Forgotten Realms, dwarf paladins of Moradin carry out the will of the dwarven pantheon.

Really? I'd peg the "Most Likely to be a Paladin" list as:

1. Human
2. Halfling (charging with a small lance atop a warpony still gives x2 damage)
3. Gnome
4. Half-elf
5. Elf
6. Half-orc
7. Dwarf

Paladins thrive on Charisma. Without it they're not as competitive. -2 Cha races don't make effective paladins.

-z

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm not bothered much about the +4 against bull-rush: Dwarves are steady on their legs, plus it's not a big deal, since bull rushes don't come up all that often.

I also don't mind the speed thing. They get a low speed for medium-size creatures, after all, and I think it actually makes sense.

But I really don't care about the half-hearted way they implemented weapon familiarity: only for two races out of seven is not enough IMO. But instead of cancelling it for dwarves and gnomes, I give every race one or more familiar weapons (whey probably would have done that, but they decided against introducing new weapons): elves: elven thinblade/longblade (however you want to call it - basically a d8 rapier); halflings: skiprocks and halfling warslings (and yes, this makes it so much easier for warsling snipers); half-orc: orc double axe (half-orcs are more like "diet orcs" than a human-orc crossbreed); humans get one exotic weapon of their choice (I think they got the shaft and need something to make up for it, but I don't like the Idea of giving them two free feats). With half-elves I'm not so sure, but I lean towars the human way (as they are a real blend of humans and elves, not just a "diet elf").

 

[Gez]

I would see dwarves as more likely than half-orcs to be paladin. Both for cultural (alignment) issues, and for cultural (equipment) issues.

After all, paladins are stereotyped to the quintessential "knight in shining armor", and dwarves are the most likely to craft shining full plates (elves like shining stuff, but they prefer mails -- and the dwarves are better craftsmen anyway).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

1. Human
2. Halfling (charging with a small lance atop a warpony still gives x2 damage)
3. Gnome
4. Half-elf
5. Elf
6. Half-orc
7. Dwarf

Paladins thrive on Charisma. Without it they're not as competitive. -2 Cha races don't make effective paladins.

Personally, I rank them
1. Human (they are the traditional paladin race)
2. Dwarf (they are lawful by nature, usually good, often quite warlike, and quite religious - the two favourite warcries the dwarves have are "Moradin" and "Clangeddin"*)
3. Half-Elf (at least those who are more like their human counterparts)
4. Halflings (their main Goddess is a Paladin)
5. Gnomes (they have their share of Paladins, but are more neutral in their disposition, and prefer to avoid combat)
6.7. Both Elves and Half-orcs. (Elves are chaotic and don't have a single deity that supports paladins, Corellon actually doesn't want his children to restrict themselves in that way. So a Elven Paladin has to forsake his Pantheon) (Half-orcs are too much of an orc and therefore lean towards chaotic and evil AND they have a cha penalty. But half-orcs that have inherited most of their traits from a human could become paladins).

You see half-orcs are actually less likely to become paladins than dwarves are - both have -2 Cha, and while dwarves are usually lawful good, half-orcs are more often chaotic evil than either lawful or good.

And while dwarves might have -2 cha, they still fit in the concept of the paladin (it's not all about min/maxing, there are other considerations). They are usually LG, their main deity is LG, their main war deity is LG, they're war-like and religious. They might focus a little less on their charisma than other brands of paladin, instead using their weapons.



This is what the PHB (3.5) says about paladins and races:

Humans, with their ambitious souls, make great paladins, Half-elves, who often have human ambition, may also find themselves called into service as paladines. Dwarves are sometimes paladines, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin's life before duties to family, clan, and king. Elf paladins are few, and they tend o follow quests that take them far and whde because their lawful bent puts them out of synch with life among the elves. Members of the other common races rarely hear the call to become paladins. Among the savage humanoids, paladins are all but unheard of.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

After all, paladins are stereotyped to the quintessential "knight in shining armor", and dwarves are the most likely to craft shining full plates (elves like shining stuff, but they prefer mails

Also, elves have their bladesingers, which have a similar role as the paladin, but with an elven bent.

 

[Zaruthustran]

(it's not all about min/maxing, there are other considerations).

I was going only off of min/max considerations. These days I usually play in RPGA modules which are by their nature geared toward competitive play and tend to be written with min/maxers in mind.

But without min/max considerations I'd support your ranking.

-z

 

[The Souljourner]

I'm playing a dwarven paladin of moradin in a campaign (well, paladin 3/fighter 4/Dwarven Defender 2)... granted he only has 14 charisma because of the -2, but he's still a good paladin. +2 to all your saves isn't good enough for you? Double your level in healing isn't spectacular, but it's not terrible either, and he can still wear magic items to pump up his charisma. All in all, losing +1 to your reflex and will saves and instead getting +1 hitpoint per level is probably worth it, especially since dwarves get +2 to saves against magic anyway.

Immune to fear and disease? I think those are damn cool abilities for a dwarf... they're supposed to be unshakable and superbly healthy.

While it may seem like an odd choice given the -2 charisma, they actually make great paladins, roleplaying-wise, and not too bad from a stat point of view either: +2 con is pretty awesome, not to mention all the reasons why people in this thread think they're overpowered (I disagree... I just think the rest of the races need more flavor, which is what most of those small bonuses are due to).

-The Souljourner