Dwarves and other races

[Thels]

If you want to see dwarves for balance, this is what they get:

-10 movement when in light or no armor
+2 Con
-2 Cha
60' Darkvision
+2 to saves vs. spells
+2 to saves vs. poison

The rest is minimally useful stuff that doesn't really tip the balance one way or another.

You seriously stack the weapon familiarity with flavor stuff? It practically adds up to the human bonus feat on it's own in comparison to the human when talking about fighters.

Gold Dwarves are indeed nice for Paladins and Clerics, where a -2 dex is not much of a hit, but they're not core, so perhaps not bring them into the discussion.

I was a little startled when I found out Half-Orcs didn't get weapon familiarity with the Orc Doubleaxe. I was a lot more startled when I found out Orcs didn't either (see the MM).

Dwarves are getting a LOT of flavorstuff, and I wouldn't call it all flavor stuff. I wouldn't call it LA +1 either, though I've been thinking about +1 LA Dwarves with +2 Str, +2 Con instead of +2 Con, -2 Cha, which IMHO is quite on par.

Look at that Dwarf in the PHB. Those muscles really are 10-11?!?

 

[Xavim]

In the long run racial abilities really don't add up to much. So he can use a Dwarf Waraxe, so what? It only deals 2 more damage anyway and adds much needed flavour to the race. The weapon Familiarity is a benefit that these races get because they're long lived. Elves for example have lived for 110 years before they can adventure (according to the PHB) what were they doing during that time? They obviously weren't practising any skills since they don't get racial bonuses on say art, dancing, singing or the like. The racial bonuses like the Dwarves +4 bonus vs. Giants, reflect the 30-40+ years of training the character recieved during their LONG lives. It adds to the logic and mystique surrounding the races.

Every scrap of Fantasy literature supports the normal move in heavy armour Dwarf. IMO the Dwarf should be able to carry 1.5* what a normal character can, they're low centre of gravity makes them quite powerful.

(I acctually know a Dwarf, (not the fantasy kind, but a real little person) and he can move remarkable amounts of weight for someone of his size. I think the most remarkable was a couch full of 3 ladies that he sent sprawling during a party...)

 

[reapersaurus]

In the long run racial abilities really don't add up to much. So he can use a Dwarf Waraxe, so what? It only deals 2 more damage anyway and adds much needed flavour to the race. The weapon Familiarity is a benefit that these races get because they're long lived.

We ARE in the Rules Forum here, right?
Since you're new here, I'll try to help you understand the approach, and I'll break down your first statements.

"Racial abilities don;t add up to much"?
Well, according to the rules, they are worth sometimes multiple feats. Most people consider that palpable, and not to be overlooked, or hand-waved.

"So he can use a Dwarf Waraxe, so what? It only deals 2 more damage anyway and adds much needed flavour to the race."
Only 2 more damage? Wow, that's hardly something to be concerned with now... <-- sarcasm
Flavor? Flavor by definition (AFAIK) means not (very) beneficial. 2 more damage is definately not just 'flavor'.

"The weapon Familiarity is a benefit that these races get because they're long lived."
Ahh.. so WotC thought up a rule that discrimates against races that have shorter lifespans?

I don't know how to get across to you a typical approach to things in the Rules Forum.
I typed out and deleted 2 explanations.
Basically, my observation is that you might help yourself if you read and lurked a bit more before starting into your active posting phase, Xavim.
Good luck.

 

[reapersaurus]

Oh - my take on 3.5 Dwarves:
they got ridiculously powerful, and half-orcs got the shaft.
There's nothing nrew about half-orcs being shafted - that's a well-understood problem, but I'll never understand how WotC could have slapped them in the face by making other races even more powerful in 3.5!
It's not like the orc weapons are any good, or would even be used by most half-orcs - it just doesn't fit in with what they are built for.

 

[Thanee]

Uhm, reaper... since we are in the rules forum, he can't have that opinion (that flavor is more important than balance)?

It's only 1 point more damage, btw!

Anyways, the dwarf is a really powerful race (already was in 3.0), probably the most powerful in the 3.5 PHB.

And I agree with the -2 Dex being more flavourful, I would probably even go that far and give them -2 Dex AND -2 Cha (so basically -2 Dex "for free" ).

Because not all races are equal, some are better suited for certain classes and concepts. An elf is a lot better suited to be an archer (non-fighter especially) than a human, for example, but the human is a better sorcerer.

The only really screwed races are the half-breeds, half-elfs more than half-orcs, who still have the benefit of being the only core race with +2 Str (the most important stat for fighting).

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

If he said Flavor is more important than balance, I guess he'd be entitled to that opinion.
He didn't say or suggest that, as I read, but I may have missed it.

It seemed to me that Xavim was confusing flavor/roleplaying benefits/rules.
The benefits that dwarves receive are not just roleplaying benefits (i.e. "flavor", IMO).
If flavor was more important than balance, than the Paladin class should by all rights be the most powerful class in the game, bar none, since flavor-wise IMO they would basically have to be.

 

[Thels]

The big change between TSR and WotC is that TSR used to focus on flavor a lot more and WotC is not focussing on Balance a lot more. For the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc, they keep forgetting they're Half-Human too.

1d8 - 1d10 matters 1 point on average indeed. It's still one point though. For onehanded and twoweapon fghters, they're surely cool bonuses.

I do think all his abilities fit the Dwarf however, and that he should be stronger, having to survive the hard underworld. But they should balance it out and include Level Adjustment. Of course that would no longer make it a core race, since level adjustment creatures are optional.

 

[Endur]

level adjustment races

I'd go farther and state that I think all of the demi-human races (dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings) should get more racial benefits and should require a level adjustment (probably with elves having the most benefits and the highest LA). That would actually be very much in tune with the fiction novels by Tolkien and other authors.

I'd leave Humans, Half-orcs, and possibly Half-elves as the only non-LA races. By being the only non-LA races, quicker class advancement would be a benefit in itself.

The big change between TSR and WotC is that TSR used to focus on flavor a lot more and WotC is not focussing on Balance a lot more. For the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc, they keep forgetting they're Half-Human too.

1d8 - 1d10 matters 1 point on average indeed. It's still one point though. For onehanded and twoweapon fghters, they're surely cool bonuses.

I do think all his abilities fit the Dwarf however, and that he should be stronger, having to survive the hard underworld. But they should balance it out and include Level Adjustment. Of course that would no longer make it a core race, since level adjustment creatures are optional.

 

[Dark Jezter]

For a strange reason, I'm less bothered by dwarven munchkinism than by elven munchkinism. They could give the dwarves a +2 Str bonus and a free Endurance feat on top of that, it would annoy me less than if they gave something like free foolproof unspyable telepathy or disease immunity to the elves.

Probably because fanboy dwarf players are less vocal, or at least less obnoxious, than fanboy elf players.

I know what you mean. The worst type of elf fanboys are the ones who worship Tolkien like a god and think that D&D elves should be just like Tolkien elves. This usually translates to elves being immune to the elements, being immune to disease, +10 to spot and listen checks, +4 to dexterity, wisdom, and intelligence, etc.

Obnoxious elf fanboys are the reason that I can't stand WOTC's official Forgotten Realms forums.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I know what you mean. The worst type of elf fanboys are the ones who worship Tolkien like a god and think that D&D elves should be just like Tolkien elves. This usually translates to elves being immune to the elements, being immune to disease, +10 to spot and listen checks, +4 to dexterity, wisdom, and intelligence, etc.

You read my thread, then?

Seriously, I agree that tolkien-like elves should get high bonuses, immortality and be superior to humans in almost every way (at least the old-school Noldor and other Light Elves). I also agree that they should be a race with a big ECL (which makes them suboptimal for a standard race).

On the other hand, I think the elves are perfectly normal the way they are (but they deserve a weapon familiarity like any other race, including humans, who should get "weapon familiarity: any one exotic weapon"). But then again, I think the dwarves are OK the way they are now, too. I even don't mind the way half-orcs are (except the weapon familiarity, or lack thereof, of course). They could cut the +2 for all I care, for I don't like half-orcs at all.