Dwarves and other races

[Thels]

Indeed, I wouldn't be annoyed if elves and dwarves got the full glory like they get in the tolkien books, and then the LA to make them balanced. However, there should be a variety of races that have no LA, since creatures without LA are more suited as player characters. A grand elf race that has +2 LA and some cool enhancements so it's kind of a goodaligned balance to the drow would be neat.

 

[Beholder Bob]

I am guestimating the value of the abilities in feat units, then comparing the totals. You may not agree w the values, but it does provide a measuring stick.

NEW RACES in home brew

HUMANS 1 (bonus feat) 1 (+4 sp) 1 feat (+1 sp/lv) ½ feat (fav class)

DWARVES 1 (+2/-1 con/cha) –1/2 (move) 1 (vision) ½ (stone cunning)
½ (weapon familiar) 1 (stability) 1 (magic/spell save) ½ (poison) 0 (orc/goblin) ¾ (appraise/craft)

ELVES +0 (+2/2 dex/con) ¼ (imm sleep) ½ (vision) +3/2 (listen/search/spot) +1 (locate secret door) +1 (weapon familiar) + ½ (+2 vs enchant)

GNOMES +0 (+2/-2 con/str), 0 (small/move), ½ (vision) ½ (weapon familiar) ½ (illusion save) +1 (illusion dc) +0 (vs koblad/goblin) 1 (ac vs giant) +1 (listen/craft) + 3/2 (spell like ability)

HALF-ELVES ¼ (imm sleep) + ½ (+2 vs enchant) + ½ (vision) + 5/2 (+ to listen/search/spot/diplomacy/gather) + 0 (elf blood) ½ (fav class)

HALF-ORCS +0 (+2 str-2 int & cha) +1 (vision) +0 (orc blood)

HALFLINGS +0 (+2/-2 dex/str) +0 (size/speed) +2 (+2 to 4 skills) +1 (save) + ¾ (att bonus w thrown/sling)

HUMANS 3 1/2
DWARVES 5 3/4
ELVES 4 3/4
GNOMES 6
HALF-ELVES 4 1/4
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3 3/4

Oh, and please take a look at the home brew post "NEW RACES". The listings are bare of flavor text, I'm just looking for balance issues so far. Thank you in advance

 

[Thels]

Humans: Extra Skillpoints is one ability on it's own. It just get's a x4 on level 1 since all skills get a +4 on level 1. The favored class shouldn't be worth a feat at all. A human Cleric3/Fighter3/Wizard1 gets XP penalties while and elven Cleric3/Fighter3/Wizard1 does not.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Humans: Extra Skillpoints is one ability on it's own. It just get's a x4 on level 1 since all skills get a +4 on level 1. The favored class shouldn't be worth a feat at all. A human Cleric3/Fighter3/Wizard1 gets XP penalties while and elven Cleric3/Fighter3/Wizard1 does not.

If youd rather, then consider the +4 sp + 1/lv a +2 feat equivelent. A feat that gives the PC +1 sp per level would be pretty good. A feat that gave you +3 skill points (+4 after the other feat gives +1 for 1st level) would be pretty good. A feat that did both would be outragous. I divided it into 2 parts as I can see a race getting either aspect without the entire package.
As to a favored class: it is the implied flexibility of choice - the elf is locked into wizard as his choice, the 1/2 orc as fighter, gnome as bard, etc. These races do not have to take these classes, but the benefit of a favored class is implicit with the race. The human and 1/2 elf player have options the other players lack. Now, a feat that gives you a particular class as favored class is equal to a feat, so the bonus this gives is as good, my guess was about 1/2 as good.

Ok - after all that - sure, I could see your point. I differ on my opinion, but see where you are coming from. I may disagree, but I could see your view in application. It would change things to:

HUMANS 2
DWARVES 5 3/4
ELVES 4 3/4
GNOMES 6
HALF-ELVES 3 3/4
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3 3/4

Who would have guessed the gnomes were so tough (assuming my 3/2 bonus for 0th & first lv spells is accurate)?

 

[Dark Jezter]

Indeed, I wouldn't be annoyed if elves and dwarves got the full glory like they get in the tolkien books, and then the LA to make them balanced. However, there should be a variety of races that have no LA, since creatures without LA are more suited as player characters. A grand elf race that has +2 LA and some cool enhancements so it's kind of a goodaligned balance to the drow would be neat.

Except I don't think that Tolkien Dwarves would have level adjustments. You could best classify the races of Middle Earth like this: Elves are perfect in every way, and all other races suck in comparison.

 

[Thels]

It's not a choice, it's always the highest. But yeah, highest comes in more usefull. You never have to worry if you pick no more than 2 classes, while other races don't have to worry if they pick their favorite class and one other class. But then, their abilities become most usefull with their favorite class anyhow.

For skills, it's just one extra skill you could max. I think one maxed skill evens out pretty much against a feat. It's not a skill bonus that could be used in addition to maxing a skill, like the elven sense bonuses.

For gnomes, their skills are pretty spread. They only get to make use of the Illusion DC AND the Weapon Familiarity if they multiclass. Also, they're small, which overall is a small disadvantage.

 

[The Souljourner]

And that is exactly why all those class comparison things don't work either, no one can decide on what is valuable and what is not. For example, I don't think there's anyone who thinks gnomes are the most powerful race. There are so many racial abilities that I would put as 0 cost... illusion saves, illusion DCs... bonus to hit a specific type of monster... all that in my opinion, is miniscule little bits of flavor that don't have any serious effect on game balance, kinda like prestidigitation.

I also don't think orcs are as bad as everyone else says. *shrug* It's all in perception. I do, however, think that many of the classes need more flavor. Don't bring down the dwarf, bring up everyone else. Give orcs a bunch of little crunchy bits too, so they can feel like they actually have some kind of racial heritage.

-The Souljourner

 

[Beholder Bob]

...For example, I don't think there's anyone who thinks gnomes are the most powerful race. There are so many racial abilities that I would put as 0 cost... illusion saves, illusion DCs... bonus to hit a specific type of monster...

Yes and no. +1 DC to all illusion spells is the same as Illusion spell focus. The bonus of +4 to a specific type of save (poison) is equal to +2 for a class of save category (FORT) - both are feats. It gets tricky when evaluating the bonuses for stuff not listed. Re-thinking it, the bonus feat for a human is equal to 3/2 feat, as it is open for choice, while classes getting bonuses have then pre-chosen and I'm counting those as a feat.

• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
I agree with you that the bonus against kobald/goblin/orc is not worth a feat - but the ac bonus against giant size is (a +4 ac against all giant class creatures ain't that bad) and is worth a feat. I forgot to add that to the dwarf.
Perhaps I should scale the Gnome ability down to 1 feat instead of 3/2?

Souljourner - it is not possible to create an exact numeric comparison without arbitrary decisions - but a rough guide is indeed possible. We make a rough guide in our heads when we compare them already, why not a guestimate you can refer to and refine over time & by comparing your view with others?

Thels - I gave small size no bonus or penalty because the gain (+1 ac & att) is good, and the 20' move is crappy, making it an even rub to me.

HUMANS 4
DWARVES 6 3/4
ELVES 4 3/4
GNOMES 5 1/2
HALF-ELVES 4 1/4
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3 3/4

 

[Thanee]

HUMANS 4
DWARVES 6 3/4
ELVES 4 3/4
GNOMES 5 1/2
HALF-ELVES 4 1/4
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3 3/4

If these are point values for the races and high means good, this must surely be an error (or a joke ). Half-Elves 4 1/4!?

And Half-Orcs are not that bad! They are among the worst races for sure (altho +2 Str and Darkvision are nice), but they are still better than Half-Elves!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Beholder Bob]

If these are point values for the races and high means good, this must surely be an error (or a joke ). Half-Elves 4 1/4!?...Half-Orcs are not that bad! They are among the worst races for sure ...but they are still better than Half-Elves!...Thanee

HALF-ELVES
• Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision
• +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
• Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.
• Favored Class: Any

¼ (imm sleep) + ½ (+2 vs enchant) + ½ (vision) + 5/2 (+7 to skill rolls, should have been a 7/4, so I will drop the value from 5/2 to 7/4) + 0 (elf blood) ½ (fav class)

HALF-ORCS
• +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
• Darkvision
• Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.

+0 (+2 str-2 int & cha) +1 (vision) +0 (orc blood)

So I kid you not. These are arbitrary values I am assigning, and of course by min/maxing your PC construction, you can ignore many weaknesses in a PC race. Overall though, yep, I'm serious. After re-factoring the 1/2 elf value (losing 3/4 feat total):

HUMANS 4
DWARVES 6 3/4
ELVES 4 3/4
GNOMES 5 1/2
HALF-ELVES 3 1/2
HALF-ORCS 1
HALFLINGS 3 3/4