D&D 5E Dwellings and magic item crafting as class features

[peterka99]

Once upon a time, d&d players got dwellings with followers at high level. They could brew potions, craft magic items, etc; With d&d 3.x, the latter became feats. I is not 5e wise, but how can we emulate it in the current edition ?

A castle, a mage tower, etc. potions, staves, armors, etc.


The issue is with players investing a lot of time, money and other resources in items with a limited usefulness to adventurers because the story arc is set... elsewhere. At high levels, it is more likely a DM set sessions in PC castles,mage towers, temples and players set traps, cast protection spells,etc to protect them. Npc have lair actions; there is no rules for PC lair actions...

A few peers posted classes with dwellings features and potion brewing as class features. I mentionned it is npc stuff, but it may be cool for a PC. The issue is that such features are quite dependant on DM will... I don't think we can say: at 13th level, you get; at 5th level you get; it shoud not take the place of combat, proficiencies or utility features. But low magic items availability trigger players need to craft item themselve, without being rich by doing it- they are adventurers, not crafters.

- I think craft such just be a profession to cover cost of living
- I think it may be cool to get dwelings and design them as "dungeons"...


Epic boon ? They are designed for 20th level characters...DMG introduced plot points, etc, but I don`t like this option- I think the DM should be able to have final word on it, and plot points look like an obligation.


Any thoughs ?

 

[aramis erak]

I think the divorce was to allow for elimination of the AD&Dism of every local baron being 9th level or higher. (It's not how the rules read, but it was a mildly unreasonable extrapolation from every 9th level fighter gets to form a barony...)

There is little reason why building a stronghold with a strong reputation shouldn't attract some flunkies willing to work for the standard rates...

It is the free psychotically loyal room & board followers I'm happy to see no longer accrue automatically.

Hell, of the dozen or so games I've had rise to name level & up over the last (goodness, is it really? 2015-1981=) 24 years, only two have actually had PCs settle down and build settlements. And in neither case was it really their idea. Most of my players see it as a punishment in D&D/AD&D...

(Now, in Pendragon, my last party wanted to get out of the landholding business... the prior ones loved it.)

 

[Paraxis]

I see the separation from class abilities and feats as a good thing. Now it is up the the player and DM to work together to craft magic items (although I wish there were better flushed out guidelines) and to build up keeps and hire henchmen (again wish there was more information). But now if you want to craft a wand you don't waste a feat learning how to do it you talk to your DM and spend some downtime, maybe have to gather some rare ingredients, and done. If you want a group of minions spend the gold and buy some mercenaries, if you want loyal men roleplay through gaining them and it can happen at level 2.

Leadership was a horrible feat in 3e, it first of all was overpowered with the who consort thing and secondly spending a character building resource and the arbitrary level requirement were both bad.

Item crafting was worse, each type of item having it's own feat was just crazy and only having to pay half the gold broke the already fragile economy and wealth by level guidelines.

 

[Minigiant]

At some point, I wanted to make a subclass/archetype for each class which gave features displaying the specific benefits a class would have in downtime.

A fighter commander would get a squire with action surge, fighting style, and second wind, as well as gain bonuses when leading an army/warband, and get bonuses in running a stronghold.

A tower wizard gets a tower, an improved familiar, and get to create one rare magic item for free.

A civilization domain cleric gets a church, a replenishing supply of acolytes and potions.

A ranger lord ranger gets the 1st edition stuff: a crystal ball and 2d12 followers.

A circle of the earth druid gets a grove and a druid conclave.

A guildmaster rogue gets a guildhall, some loyal thieves, and a bonus for running shaddy business.

But these would only work in political Intrigue games.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't understand the OP's targets...

Do you want PCs to own castles/strongholds, but do you want these to provide some benefits to the action part of adventures (e.g. henchmen, magic items) or to the plot?

I think the idea at some point was to remove the "class X automatically gets a castle" simply because a lot of players weren't interested. Previously, my feeling was that a player could start figuring out what kind of benefit could come from that castle, or ignore it, as in "you get a castle for free, but it's up to you to make it work (or not use it at all)". In 3e the general gamers attitude was "if I'm not using it, I should get something else", which is why a lot of stuff got moved to feats.

Assuming all the players are interested, I think the easiest way is just to let them have a castle (or equivalent property) at some point. You don't need any special rule, other than deciding what time is most appropriate for the current campaign. If you want a more rules-based approach, choose a level, and optionally additional levels at which they may earn an "upgrade". But clearly if you fix the levels, they may be appropriate for one campaign and work horribly in another.

Similarly, you may standardize the benefits (e.g. number of henchmen provided, total worth of magic items created etc.) but again there is no baseline that I can think about which will work fine in every campaign.

 

[peterka9]

I think the choice should between real estate and portable items. What to do with 100000 gp ?

 

[nomotog]

If your worried about PC houses being useless because your adventures are set far away. Well don't set your adventures far away. You know have the bad people come to them, or set a dungeon up close to your PC's homes.

PC layer actions. That should be a thing.

One thought is that you could just inverse the bonuses. Rather then an ability giving you a house, you could have the ability give you an advantage on any charisma checks you make inside any house you own. Like how a fighter doesn't get a sword as a class feature, they just get new cool things to do with a sword.

Another thought is wizards learn spells. Is a wizard learning a new spell really all that different then a crafter crafting a new item.

 

[SkidAce]

My PCs had a keep constructed by a Lyre of Building that the party wizard had created.

Of course, we are playing a 5E/Birthright mashup.

 

[the Jester]

Once upon a time, d&d players got dwellings with followers at high level.

Just a quibble here- pcs did not get dwellings; they got followers once they acquired or constructed an appropriate stronghold/thieves' guild/what have you.

They could brew potions, craft magic items, etc; With d&d 3.x, the latter became feats. I is not 5e wise, but how can we emulate it in the current edition ?

Sure, but the default is a much slower process than in (say) 3e, at least for magic items.

Time and money. The crafting rules are there; they are optional (for things like magic items), but the DM can certainly use them.

The issue is with players investing a lot of time, money and other resources in items with a limited usefulness to adventurers because the story arc is set... elsewhere.

This is a campaign playstyle issue, but I'd suggest that the 'problem' in this case is the presence of a 'story arc', or at least one on a timer. In other words, this is a pacing issue.

If the pcs never have downtime, of course they won't be able to stop to make magic items, build a castle, etc. If the pcs are in a 1st-to-20th-level-in-three-months style campaign, this kind of thing will never happen.

Personally, I think downtime is a beautiful thing. I want the 20th level pcs to have been at it for years, to have seen time pass and their influence on the world gradually build up. I think it's very good for the pcs to morph from traveling vagabond murderhobos to people with an investment in their community, with a nice home hanging with tapestries and trophies.

there is no rules for PC lair actions...

And I'm quite good. PCs aren't legendary monsters; lair actions are part of the way 5e makes certain monsters capable of handling an encounter with a party of adventurers without any lackeys around. It's a matter of fixing the action economy so that a 1-on-5 fight isn't over before it starts.

OTOH I do kind of like the idea of lair actions as epic boons.

A few peers posted classes with dwellings features and potion brewing as class features. I mentionned it is npc stuff, but it may be cool for a PC. The issue is that such features are quite dependant on DM will... I don't think we can say: at 13th level, you get; at 5th level you get; it shoud not take the place of combat, proficiencies or utility features. But low magic items availability trigger players need to craft item themselve, without being rich by doing it- they are adventurers, not crafters.

Again, this is a playstyle issue, but I'll be quite happy to put the days of easy magic-item crafting by pcs behind us. Do Not Want. I like the notion that crafting a magic item is hard and takes time and effort- it's probably an adventure in itself, or at least you probably have to go on an adventure to get the components (want to make a cloak of displacement? Go get an intact displacer beast hide).

Epic boon ? They are designed for 20th level characters...DMG introduced plot points, etc, but I don`t like this option- I think the DM should be able to have final word on it, and plot points look like an obligation.

The DM always has final word on it.

I do think it's good for those groups who want to enable easy magic items to have a system that allows them to do so, but I'm not running that group. That's not my style. As to strongholds, if you want to both run a fast-paced, little or no downtime campaign and include strongholds, consider the option of the pcs clearing out an old tower or something and then moving in and taking over. Or they could be granted an existing, currently-vacant castle, mansion or other dwelling. They might find a deed as treasure, or find a place for sale that they want to invest in. You're absolutely right, though, that if the DM is going to run them all around the world (with no easy quick travel home) and not allow much downtime, they don't have much of a motivation to get involved with a stationary place. In that case, there are always portable strongholds, if you want to go there- a Daern's instant fortress, a could castle, a stronghold on wheels drawn by great monsters, a mansion built on the back of a giant tortoise or other monster, etc.

In the end, it's all about playstyle and pacing. For me, if the pcs want to build, buy, take over, rent, etc. a stronghold, they can do so; they just have to make it happen. The pcs in my 5e game have rented a fancy house and built a goat enclosure on top of the roof (don't ask). They're only 4th level (at highest). Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised to see them do the work to build something better. I like the downtime, as I said, and sometimes even enforce it (winter time is not when you typically go adventuring in certain climates, nor do you strike out overland or at sea in a terrific storm).

 

[jrowland]

Hey Jester, you quoted me on accident...probably cut and paste error from other thread. Give Peterka99 his due!