Dying Words (Forked Thread: Flavour First vs Game First...)

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Forked from: Flavour First vs Game First - a comparison

Attempting to twist the system allow for "dying words" scenes that don't lose all the drama when the Cleric pulls out his cure spells...

Herremann the Wise said:
[SIDENOTE]I bit the bullet about 4 weeks ago and started pencilling out a new version of D&D for my group that I called version 3.9repeater. We like 4E but we still wonder what 4E could have been if it had have followed more the design philosophy of 3.x. In it, I think I've managed to fix up the hp issues I have had with the various issues of D&D as well as a few other things.[/SIDENOTE]

As part of that, there were several important things that I think faciliatate what you are after:
- You don't automatically fall "unconscious" if you go into negative hit points (although you could be unconscious).
- Healing (magical, divine or otherwise) does not work if you are -10hp or below.
- You make a roll to determine how long it takes you to die (instantly, a round or maybe even half an hour of pain and agony).
- A high level spell/ritual can save a character under these circumstances.

This gives the opportunity for some last words or maybe even more as suits (but still with the chance that a character is just plain instantaneously dead).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
We already do your first point above...if you go negative (but are above -10) you make a "Con. check" to see if you're still conscious.

But I'm unclear as to the rest of your idea here. Does a character at -1 to -9 still bleed down to -10? Or lower?

If so, you really might be on to something here...someone that bleeds down to -10 (as opposed to getting chopped down to below -10; you still die from that automatically) gets a roll to see how long they hover in a no-man's-zone between -10 and fully dead; this gives the "dying words" possibility. Sounds good.

Now, how to get that to work with "Death's Door" in the game, is the question. Maybe make Death's Door only effective within a round or two of getting to -10. Hmmm...possibilities here... :)

Lanefan
 

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I suppose this is heading more into house rule territory (where if the thread is moved it will die an ignoble death with only a handful of EN World regulars to view or comment on it's own "Dying Words").

However, I'm surprised that D&D has not had a similar mechanic. The dying words plot device is perhaps a little cliche but at the same time, it would be handy to have it actually available in the rules.

The main reason for this is to prevent characters dying. If a PC falls unconscious by being hit into the negatives, they are taken out of the immediate combat but hopefully will be healed up for the next one. If you take this "phase" out, I think you have to acknowledge that PC deaths are more likely to happen. You could still have a character fall to the ground and enforce a prone condition upon them I suppose - this would help, they just aren't automatically unconscious and they cannot get up from prone.

In what I'm penning up, I've got something different again for what's going on when you are at 0 or negative hit points. However, for what you want, you could still have the -1hp loss each round until dead. However, even if a character is brought abruptly to -20hp, there should still be a chance for them to be able to dribble out a few last words. Perhaps a fortitude save with the DC, the amount of damage that was taken from the killing blow. If successful, they have a chance to say their dying words. Roll a d4 to determine how long they stay alive for:
1) Dead - no last words
2) ...Dead - 1 round
3) Almost Dead - 3 rounds
4) Wishing they were dead - 1 minute or longer (DM's call)

Can you expand upon what you mean by Death's Door?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Lanefan, both Roger Musson's White Dwarf version of VP/WP ("How to Lose Hit Points and Survive", written for OD&D), and RM, allow for it, because in both cases healing a dying character requires non-trivial magic (Musson requires Cure Serious Wounds, which is lvl 4, though in AD&D using UA one might nominate Death's Door, lvl 3, as the relevant spell).
 

The dying words:
1) Characters at -1 hit points or less can still speak on their action, but they are very silent. They are otherwise unable to act and helpless.
3E: DC 10 Listen check to hear them.
4E: Perception DC 15 to hear them.
Both DC are adjusted by range.

2) The above rule is only really "useful" if there's no healer around. If there is, it is very likely the character will be up and running before his death.
3E: If a character is at -10 or less hit points, he is for all intents and purposes dead.
4E:
If a character has failed his last saving throw against death, he is for all intents and purposes dead.

For Both:
Healing powers can no longer hope to restore him, and he cannot gain benefits from temporary hit points.
as the connection between his soul and body has been severed. But there is still a remaining glimmer of life in him. For up to 1 minute per point of charisma score, the victim can still attempt to say his final words, using up his last glimmer of life. At any point during this time, the victim can speak for 1d3+CON rounds. Hearing him requires a Listen (3E)/Perception (4E) check (DC 10/15).
 

However, I'm surprised that D&D has not had a similar mechanic. The dying words plot device is perhaps a little cliche but at the same time, it would be handy to have it actually available in the rules.

The main reason for this is to prevent characters dying. If a PC falls unconscious by being hit into the negatives, they are taken out of the immediate combat but hopefully will be healed up for the next one. If you take this "phase" out, I think you have to acknowledge that PC deaths are more likely to happen. You could still have a character fall to the ground and enforce a prone condition upon them I suppose - this would help, they just aren't automatically unconscious and they cannot get up from prone.
But if a PC falls unconscious and then bleeds to death before healing arrives (in other words, would die anyway), we have a fine place for a "dying words" situation; as you proposed to begin with. If they go through the -10 barrier via actual injury e.g. a sword strike takes them from -4 to -12 then they're dead on the spot, no dying words or anything else. It's the slow bleed out that holds the promise here.
In what I'm penning up, I've got something different again for what's going on when you are at 0 or negative hit points. However, for what you want, you could still have the -1hp loss each round until dead. However, even if a character is brought abruptly to -20hp, there should still be a chance for them to be able to dribble out a few last words. Perhaps a fortitude save with the DC, the amount of damage that was taken from the killing blow. If successful, they have a chance to say their dying words. Roll a d4 to determine how long they stay alive for:
1) Dead - no last words
2) ...Dead - 1 round
3) Almost Dead - 3 rounds
4) Wishing they were dead - 1 minute or longer (DM's call)
If they're as far gone as -20 I'd say a short scream becoming a gurgle is all they get. :) Now, that dying scream might be a word or two e.g. William Wallace's "Freedom!" from Braveheart, but they sure won't get a round or three to do it.
Can you expand upon what you mean by Death's Door?
It's a 1e spell introduced in Unearthed Arcana; 3rd-level Cleric. I've modified it almost beyond recognition. I mentioned it here as it is exactly the sort of spell that interacts really badly with dying-words scenarios; by "badly" I mean it negates them completely.

Mustrum_Ridcully's charisma-based idea has me thinking also. I'd want the nearly-dead (can't call them undead, can I?) to be able to do just a bit more than talk, to allow for the following cinematic situations:

- with the battle over and the last of the attackers down, the dying soldier drags himself painfully into what he hopes is a safe hiding place, knowing the Queen's message he bears cannot fall into the wrong hands; he manages to scrawl a few too-brief words in the dirt before succumbing to his wounds, hoping against hope that royal agents find him before the rebels do.
- the valiant cowboy, blood pouring from the bullet hole in his throat and left for dead by the bearded villain, props his gun across his arm for one last-ditch shot.
- stricken with disease and beyond the abilities of any healer, the father clings to life, desperately waiting for his daughter to arrive so he can pass on the family secret that could change the world.

And so on.

In mechanics terms, any such action would at least require a save vs. death (or, in 1e, a system shock roll; why did they *ever* do away with that?) immediately on completion; for some actions, such as the father-daughter example above, death would be automatic.

In truth, I think of dying-words as something more useful for DMs than players, to provide drama, adventure hooks or climaxes, and so forth. But it also has to work the same way for the PCs, at least in my world, and these suggestions you're coming up with are great. :)

Lanefan
 

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