BOZ
Creature Cataloguer
got this e-mail today, i figured it would be a good idea to discuss it here. 
At 08:34 AM 3/29/04 -0800, you wrote:
>if you find anything else that needs fixing, don't be afraid to mention it!
You said to speak up! I just looked at the new set of conversions and have questions about the linnorm and the titan.
frost linnorm lists SQ of "spells" as well as spell-like abilities, but there is no description of the spells in the text. I looked at the fire linnorm for comparison and surmise that the intent is that there be a 17th level sorcerer capability with unspecified spells, so this needs to be corrected.
I was hesistant to speak up without reading through the thread discussion of the conversion, but found no mention of the spells or spell selection being discussed, so I'm presuming it was simply forgotten. Ehile checking it out though, two more questions/issues came up:
1) a simple typo - from your dragon monster index and the flame linnorm conversion, the source of the frost linnorm should be Dragon #183 and not #182
2) where did you get the very high CR for the frost linnorm? Even with 17th level sorcerer capability, a 21 seems very high. The frost is 5HD less than the flame linnorm and has weaker stats, a smaller breath weapon and only one instead of two and yet is listed as only 2 CR lower. I think the flame linnorm is also high, but not as bad. I did some checking and I rarely see onsters with CRs higher than their number of HD. When it is so, it is usually because they have class skills at a higher level and the class level is a better predictor of CR. But even then, the CR level is seldom more than 1 or 2 higher than the higher of the two - HD or class level. Based on this, I would have expected the flame linnorm at 20 HD and class skills of an 18 sorcerer to be around 21-22. The frost linnorm without the spells defined looks no worse than a CR15-16, but with 17th sorcerer spells might be worth a CR18 or 19.
If I am totally off base on this, is there a place where you discuss the methodology for setting CRs of converted monsters? There seems to have been no real debate on the CR level in the forum discussion which implies that this sort of thing is thoroughly settled (or that no one cares about CRs).
The titan Coeus question is simpler - he is listed as using an oversized +5 greatsword, doing humongous damage but as getting only a single attack with that weapon even on full attack. Most of the other named titans have two slam attacks which each do comparable damage to Coeus's single greatsword attack. Cronus is the only other converted titan with a weapon, and while it does somewhat lower damage because it apparently is only one-handed and gets a smaller strength bonus as a result, it has the "colossal keen vorpal adamantine" modifiers (but apparently no actual plusses on the weapon), and he is getting 4 attacks per round on full attack. So why isn't Coeus getting multiple attacks with his scary greatsword? Should he be getting the 4 per round that Cronus is?
I didn't dig through the forum threads to see whether this was discussed, having taken so long on looking up the linnorm, but since I was writing to ask about the linnorm, I figured I might as well ask about this one too.
All this makes me wish I had the time to get involved in the actual conversion work so I could make comments as the monsters are discussed. But not this month. So keep up the good work, and I'll speak up like this when I spot something.
Thanks for all your efforts.
At 08:34 AM 3/29/04 -0800, you wrote:
>if you find anything else that needs fixing, don't be afraid to mention it!
You said to speak up! I just looked at the new set of conversions and have questions about the linnorm and the titan.
frost linnorm lists SQ of "spells" as well as spell-like abilities, but there is no description of the spells in the text. I looked at the fire linnorm for comparison and surmise that the intent is that there be a 17th level sorcerer capability with unspecified spells, so this needs to be corrected.
I was hesistant to speak up without reading through the thread discussion of the conversion, but found no mention of the spells or spell selection being discussed, so I'm presuming it was simply forgotten. Ehile checking it out though, two more questions/issues came up:
1) a simple typo - from your dragon monster index and the flame linnorm conversion, the source of the frost linnorm should be Dragon #183 and not #182
2) where did you get the very high CR for the frost linnorm? Even with 17th level sorcerer capability, a 21 seems very high. The frost is 5HD less than the flame linnorm and has weaker stats, a smaller breath weapon and only one instead of two and yet is listed as only 2 CR lower. I think the flame linnorm is also high, but not as bad. I did some checking and I rarely see onsters with CRs higher than their number of HD. When it is so, it is usually because they have class skills at a higher level and the class level is a better predictor of CR. But even then, the CR level is seldom more than 1 or 2 higher than the higher of the two - HD or class level. Based on this, I would have expected the flame linnorm at 20 HD and class skills of an 18 sorcerer to be around 21-22. The frost linnorm without the spells defined looks no worse than a CR15-16, but with 17th sorcerer spells might be worth a CR18 or 19.
If I am totally off base on this, is there a place where you discuss the methodology for setting CRs of converted monsters? There seems to have been no real debate on the CR level in the forum discussion which implies that this sort of thing is thoroughly settled (or that no one cares about CRs).
The titan Coeus question is simpler - he is listed as using an oversized +5 greatsword, doing humongous damage but as getting only a single attack with that weapon even on full attack. Most of the other named titans have two slam attacks which each do comparable damage to Coeus's single greatsword attack. Cronus is the only other converted titan with a weapon, and while it does somewhat lower damage because it apparently is only one-handed and gets a smaller strength bonus as a result, it has the "colossal keen vorpal adamantine" modifiers (but apparently no actual plusses on the weapon), and he is getting 4 attacks per round on full attack. So why isn't Coeus getting multiple attacks with his scary greatsword? Should he be getting the 4 per round that Cronus is?
I didn't dig through the forum threads to see whether this was discussed, having taken so long on looking up the linnorm, but since I was writing to ask about the linnorm, I figured I might as well ask about this one too.
All this makes me wish I had the time to get involved in the actual conversion work so I could make comments as the monsters are discussed. But not this month. So keep up the good work, and I'll speak up like this when I spot something.
Thanks for all your efforts.
i'd have to delete the entry and re-enter it...
