D&D 5E E6 in 5e

[Wulffolk]

There was a another poll recently concerning which levels people found most fun to play. I mentioned E6 and E10 in that thread. There were people that had not heard about it, so I thought I would share this for those that are interested.

E6 stands for Epic 6. It is the name of a rules variant which was introduced by [MENTION=8314]Ry[/MENTION] back in 2007 (yeah, 10 years ago).
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

u/Thomar posted on Reddit a good take on E6 for 5e, which I will quote here:

E6 in D&D 5e
u/thomar
5e D&D seems to support E6 pretty well, so this document lays out some guidelines for using it.

The whole point of E6 is to declare that certain magical abilities are beyond mortal ken in a setting. Teleportation and bringing the dead back to life are the two greatest offenders, but this also cuts of a good chunk of the "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" problem, which is still around in 5e (although considerably nerfed by spells per day). http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

Setting level 6 as the barrier is traditional because of the limitations it places on 4th-level and higher spells. Anlysis of different cutoff levels follows. Which one you use is ultimately up to you as a GM and you should discuss the ramifications of it with your players.

Here's how E6 (and similar level restrictions) looks like with the new 5e spell list from the PHB:

E10: Spellcasters can exercise true mind control, shapechange, cure petrification, break curses, spy globally, raise the dead back to life, disguise armies with illusions, set up teleport networks, have conversations with gods, summon outsiders to carry out complex tasks, gift animals and trees with sentience, and erect stone fortifications.

E8: Spellcasters can spy nearby, teleport hundreds of feet, fight invisibly, disguise buildings with illusions, shapechange, hold armies at bay, sink ships, and ask the very gods questions.

E6: Spellcasters can curse their enemies, scry nearby but with an obvious telltale, hold small groups at bay, send messages long distances, see into the past about a day, speak any language, raise undead servants, bring the terminally injured back to life, disobey natural laws like gravity, travel through the air and water, and rapidly travel over land.

E4: Spellcasters can create perfect disguises, hold strong warriors at bay, make warriors significantly stronger, turn invisible, levitate, exercise limited mind control, climb walls, send messages in a limited fashion, survive deadly poison, use magic to make hidden things obvious, and hide their tracks.

E2: Spellcasters can exercise fragile mind control, weave superficial illusions, communicate with animals, use telekinesis, heal moderate injuries, inconvenience warriors, use magic to replace tools and moderately expensive equipment, and partially understand unknown languages.

In an E6 setting, a character with 6,500 XP has reached level 6, the highest possible power level for a mortal. Level advancement stops at 6th level, but characters still progress by improving their ability scores and gaining feats. Every 4,000 XP after attaining 6th level, a level 6 character can raise one ability score by +1 (to the normal maximum of 20). Learning a feat takes the place two +1 ability score increases (or 8,000 XP), so a character who wants to learn a feat should skip the ability score increase when they earn 4,000 XP and wait untill they earn their next 4,000 XP to gain the feat.

Maximum Level./ XP Per +1./ XP Per Feat
10./ 11,000./ 22,000
8./ 6,000./ 12,000
6./ 4,000./ 8,000
4./ 900./ 1,800
2./ 200./ 400

The absence of these magic spells can sometimes detrimentally affect gameplay. The plot might call for the players to teleport to the moon, commune with the spirit of a deceased sage, or maybe one of the players got bitten by a cockatrice and they don't want to roll up a new character. Fortunately, the D&D 5e ritual rules work well in this regard. Many 4th- and 5th-level spells can be converted into rare rituals that the GM can use as rewards for major quests, giving the PCs access to spells they would otherwise be unable to acquire (with rare non-purchasable material components, of course). Good candidates include divination, polymorph, awaken, greater restoration, raise dead, scrying, teleportation circle, reincarnate, wall of stone, etc. Of course, a GM who doesn't want those effects to be possible in their campaign may opt out of using these.

Most younger gamers come from the mindset of "the end-game" due to how MMO's work. E6 let's character's continue to grow while not getting ridiculously overpowered, letting people enjoy the end-game for prolonged periods. It also allows new characters to join established character's without there being too much of a power gap.

 

[Alexemplar]

I'd be really interested in trying to run an e6 game in 5e. Thanks for the notes.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Most younger gamers come from the mindset of "the end-game" due to how MMO's work.

Seems like a sweeping (and unprovable, as well as non-disprovable) generalization, and an entirely unnecessary addition to an otherwise interesting post.

 

[Horwath]

I would go with E6.

then determine how much xp for next ASI you need.

Alternatively, you could gain level in a class that you do not have at lvl6 already, but without HP boost or raising proficiencies.

I.E. after 6 levels of wizard, instead of ASI you could get 1st level of fighter with same multiclass rules. But no HPs. Essentialy making a gestalt.

 

[Nevvur]

I'm working on an SRD5 overhaul that uses an E6 style of progression, myself. In discussing its development with a friend, an interesting point emerged. Higher level play (roughly 10+) tends to make me feel like I'm losing control of the story due to the huge bag of tricks those PCs carry around. The main problem for me is that creating certain types of obstacles becomes increasingly contrived. As the PCs gain agency over their world, I feel like I'm losing it as the DM.

 

[Wulffolk]

Seems like a sweeping (and unprovable, as well as non-disprovable) generalization, and an entirely unnecessary addition to an otherwise interesting post.

I suppose I worded that poorly. In my anecdotal experience most role-players are also computer gamers. Most of this category of people that I know are younger than I am. Many of those computer gamers play MMO's, and are highly concerned about how much fun the "end-game" is to play. I have heard similar concerns about D&D: it takes too long to get to 20th level, there's nothing to do at 20th level, games end before 20th level or shortly after getting there, etc.

My point was that using E6 gives a sense of "end-game" that a group can enjoy for an extended period of time. New characters can join in without being completely over-shadowed by higher level characters. This makes it possible for players to come and go, or replacement 1st level character's to get involved after an old character dies, without needing to skip levels. You could have a veteran player that does not want to quit playing his old character team up with a new generation of heroes for the next campaign without him being a one-man show.

 

[Wulffolk]

If I were writing an E6 variant of the rules from scratch I might condense some class features into lower levels, to make each of those 6 levels count for something. I might also have all sublasses starting at 2nd level. Depends on how much work i wanted to put in as a DM.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I've thought about removing hit dice 11-20, similar to 1e/2e. Basically, you only gain hit dice for your first 10 levels. Beginning with level 11, if you would gain a d12 hit die, you gain 4 max hp, d10 gains 3, d8 gains 2, and d6 gains 1. These aren't hit dice, so you don't gain your Con modifier.

This has the effect of making the game increasingly deadly at high level, since offense now increases much faster than defense. This means that risk increases at high level much more like it used to.

We already sometimes play with the house rule that dropping to 0 hp causes a level of exhaustion, so I'm not worried about whack-a-mole syndrome.

 

[Coroc]

5E does not Need E6 because it has bound accuracy.

 

[Mephista]

Yeesh. I wonder where that reddit poster fits onto the Fighter v. Wizard debate. >.< Making E6 all about blaming spellcasters is just annoying. No, its not set at level 6 because of 4+ spells.

E6 was devised in such a way that you can play in the "sweet spot" of 3rd edition leveling, before numbers got completely gonzo. This includes the number of attacks made, spells cast, your save proficencies, and skills going everywhere. A true E6 needs to take into account things like feats on warriors, sneak attack being so outpaced, unreasonably large HP pools, etc. Level 6 was chosen because it was roughly the start of the sweet spot, and let you grow your character with "feats" (it should be more like epic boons in 5e, as per page 231-2 of the DMG). Well, toned down, but same idea.

Thanks to the Reddit writers' proposal, this sort of gameplay is going to vastly favor Warrior type characters (specifically the Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin), as most of these classes will continue to grow in power thanks to a weaponry-bais in feats.

Spellcasters are especially problematic. Turning level 4+ spells into rituals isn't going to solve anything, as the overwhelming majority of level 4+ spells are combat oriented; turning every spell into a 10 minute pause is effectively going to either effectively remove them from play, or favor ones that take time anyways, like the Conjure spells. This effectively creates the situation where any of the spellcaster types effectively caps in power at E6 and cannot grow. You become static. And, to put it simply, that's BORING. At best, you raise your ASI and nothing else ever again. +1s, while handy, are boring. I feel like this also applies to the rogue; very few feats that apply to the rogue, resulting in a static character. I feel like we hurt the Monk as well - ki points are kinda important, and capping at 6 still leaves you hungry.

And lets talk a bit about the cleric for a tic. With this rule, you'll never get divine strike. While probably not as big of a deal, I think its going to be something that is just endemic of a larger issue - if E6 is going to be translated to 5e, we need to develop a way to develop subclass abilities.

Feats were a big deal in 3e. They applied to everyone, and could do a lot of things with them. You could raise your attack bonus, your skills, your magical abilities, gain new talents. In 5e, there's only a limited number of feats. Even the original E6 had feats that allowed growth in various ways to make up for the lack of level growth for those that needed it.

This anti-spellcaster-rant version is just badly done, without giving other aspects of gameplay deeper thought. The point of E6 is that you cap certain aspects of the game, while still allowing characters to grow in power to reflect a level 8 or even level 10 character in time, letting you extend the "sweet spot" of the game. Unlike 3e, though, feats aren't reflective of growing in power for many classes, and using that as a bandaid is nothing more than a short sighted kludge.