D&D 5E E6 in 5e

[CapnZapp]

Informing new edition players about E6 is certainly good and well.

However, I'm not the first one to argue that many (but perhaps not all) arguments for instituting it have fallen by the wayside.

3rd edition was genuinely a Monte Cookian game where spellcasters were allowed to do pretty much everything with pretty much zero restrictions and limitations.

5E is very far removed from that game.

(I won't go into details since that's irrelevant for this thread. I guess I want to say - power to you if you need it in 5E, but I certainly don't because 5E is a clearly superior game to 3E in nearly every aspect - overt as well as subtle ones. My players might long back to the d20 days, but I, the DM, most certainly do not ☺)

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[dave2008]

Informing new edition players about E6 is certainly good and well.

However, I'm not the first one to argue that many (but perhaps not all) arguments for instituting it have fallen by the wayside.

3rd edition was genuinely a Monte Cookian game where spellcasters were allowed to do pretty much everything with pretty much zero restrictions and limitations.

5E is very far removed from that game.

(I won't go into details since that's irrelevant for this thread. I guess I want to say - power to you if you need it in 5E, but I certainly don't because 5E is a clearly superior game to 3E in nearly every aspect - overt as well as subtle ones. My players might long back to the d20 days, but I, the DM, most certainly do not ☺)

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However, what I do think 5EE6 could help with is a particular issue you are having CapnZapp. If you cap HP, Attacks, and spells at PC level 6-10. I think the higher CR monsters would be more relevant as is.

 

[killerklown]

On my side I want to test two things in my new campaign:

• Gold-expense as XP
• Alchemy as a way to circumvent the level cap I've placed on the campaign (questing for ingredients, like described here: THERE IS NO XP! TAKE MONSTER DRUGS INSTEAD!)

And then I had to think about this level cap. I first thought of an E8 and i explain on my blog why : DREAD's rules: Level Cap at lvl 8
But i had a few exchanges with people with more rules acumen than I have and changed it to an E9, and explaind here why : DREAD's rules: on second thoughts, Level Cap at lvl 9

I hope this brings something to the discussion

 

[TwoSix]

On my side I want to test two things in my new campaign:

• Gold-expense as XP
• Alchemy as a way to circumvent the level cap I've placed on the campaign (questing for ingredients, like described here: THERE IS NO XP! TAKE MONSTER DRUGS INSTEAD!)

And then I had to think about this level cap. I first thought of an E8 and i explain on my blog why : DREAD's rules: Level Cap at lvl 8
But i had a few exchanges with people with more rules acumen than I have and changed it to an E9, and explaind here why : DREAD's rules: on second thoughts, Level Cap at lvl 9

I hope this brings something to the discussion

I think your thought process makes sense. (I also like the monster drugs, as tying progression to concrete events within the narrative is something I've been noodling around with also.)

I might argue for a level cap at 10. A lot of classes get something akin to a mini-capstone at 10, but with little spell progression or the large power bump that comes at 11. It also allows for multiclassers to do 5/5 splits that are decently powerful, and don't get overshadowed by the power-bump at 11. (I'm a fan of even split multiclasses rather than 1-2 level dips; I just find them more elegant.)

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm running my first Pathfinder 2 sandbox campaign right now.

I'm testing out gold-for-xp which so far works great!

In the sense that it reinforces the gold Rush vibe of my "home town" (Sandpoint) - the focus is less on one long plot (to save the world) and more on exploring the landscape in search for "business opportunities". It sets a "live everyday like it's your last" mood (like Conan, you gain xp by spending gold on wine, women and song...), supported by the fact new faces fresh off the ships continuously get in over their heads and not returning to the taverns...

Of course, PF2 has far more robust support for spending gold on adventuring-useful stuff like magic weapons, so I really don't have a good answer why I didn't think of this during my many years DMing 5th edition...

 

[snickersnax]

And then I had to think about this level cap. I first thought of an E8 and i explain on my blog why : DREAD's rules: Level Cap at lvl 8
But i had a few exchanges with people with more rules acumen than I have and changed it to an E9, and explaind here why : DREAD's rules: on second thoughts, Level Cap at lvl 9

I run two types of level capped campaigns now: E5(low magic) and E10(medium magic). What is working well for me is to use the full 5E proficiency bonus spread for for both. So in E5: level 1 is +2 and proficiency progresses by +1 every level up to +6 at level 5 and in the E9 version level 1 is +2 and proficiency progresses by +1 every 2 levels to +6 at level 9/10 . In both systems hit points progress by proficiency bonus as well. So 1st level hit points is 3 HD, in E5 at level 5 its 7HD, or in E10 at level 9 its 7 HD. I also give everyone (including monsters) proficiency bonus to armor and all saves. For my groups the balance is much better and solves world-building problems of high magic and also problems with impotent solo BBEGs at high levels

 

[Flamestrike]

I dont get whats wrong with powerfull PCs.

Going toe to toe with a Demon Lord and winning is fun. Being Elminster or Mordenkainen is fun.

It's not that players prefer low level play that low level play is common; it's that most DMs cant properly run games in mid to high level, and quit the campaign at that point.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I dont get whats wrong with powerfull PCs.

Going toe to toe with a Demon Lord and winning is fun. Being Elminster or Mordenkainen is fun.

It's not that players prefer low level play that low level play is common; it's that most DMs cant properly run games in mid to high level, and quit the campaign at that point.

Good point. It is very demanding and challenging to create (at least) somewhat believable story-lines for 15+ levels, but that has been the case in every edition. I've run a few, but even for players sometimes the challenge of getting there is really more fun.

 

[Flamestrike]

Good point. It is very demanding and challenging to create (at least) somewhat believable story-lines for 15+ levels, but that has been the case in every edition. I've run a few, but even for players sometimes the challenge of getting there is really more fun.

Ive never seen a group of players that have come to the conclusion that playing past 6th level 'isnt fun' - the reason most games end at that point is almost always down to the DM not being able to competently run mid-high level adventures.

The players advance to a level the DM is unfamiliar with, new abilities come online that the DM hasnt seen in play before (and hasnt turned his mind to in creating the adventure) and promptly the DMs well though out adventure gets crushed in a single spell, and the DM (feeling frustrated) quits the campaign citing 'DM burnout'.

That's what happens in most cases IME.

Like I always say to DM's - you gotta run a few campaigns to 20th to get the hang of them. We've all run games to low level. We know those levels and are comfortable DMing those levels.

You've gotta get comfortable with high level play, and you only get that with experience.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ive never seen a group of players that have come to the conclusion that playing past 6th level 'isnt fun' - the reason most games end at that point is almost always down to the DM not being able to competently run mid-high level adventures.

The players advance to a level the DM is unfamiliar with, new abilities come online that the DM hasnt seen in play before (and hasnt turned his mind to in creating the adventure) and promptly the DMs well though out adventure gets crushed in a single spell, and the DM (feeling frustrated) quits the campaign citing 'DM burnout'.

That's what happens in most cases IME.

Like I always say to DM's - you gotta run a few campaigns to 20th to get the hang of them. We've all run games to low level. We know those levels and are comfortable DMing those levels.

You've gotta get comfortable with high level play, and you only get that with experience.

I didn't realize we were talking about 6th level since you were talking about high levels of play (which to me is 15+). Our current game is 10th level and going strong.

But, I have seen several games where players want the thrill of lower levels again and have new concepts they want to play out.

DM "burnout" has never been an issue in any of the tables I've played at. What ends up happening is a player wants to run a game/adventure, to gets his turn as DM for a while, then it changes hands again.

At any rate, I find your idea of running "a few campaigns to 20th" a bit laughable. It takes a LONG time IME to get from 1st to 20th in any edition, several months to years in real time. Your pace must be greatly accelerated compared to what I am used to!