E6: The Game Inside D&D (with PDFs!)

[Ry]

There's been some interest in running E8 (I think Lord Tirian is running Arcana Evolved E7, some others are looking at E8 instead).

Try this google, der_kluge

site:www.enworld.org e6 e8

 

[Kunimatyu]

Hmm, so I'm looking at the 4th level spell list (a cap at 8th level, say). It includes stoneskin, Evard's black tentacles, and polymorph - which are probably the most powerful in that set. I could see just removing polymorph outright. Then I'd say a cap of 8th would be pretty reasonable. They'd be strong, yes, but not ridiculously so.

Remember that spells like Evard's and Solid Fog basically require magic to overcome (freedom of movement/gust of wind) and that spells like Divine Power serve to tip the balance in favor of magic users. Even spells like Improved Invisibility can cause severe issues, while 3rd level spells generally do not have this problem.

Most of us are operating on a "lean upwards" mentality, where we create feats that allow 1/day casting of non-broken 4th-level spells, like restoration, wall of fire, etc. Obviously, you can do what you want, but it seems like an 8th level cap would massively increase the workload for no real payoff.

 

[der_kluge]

Remember that spells like Evard's and Solid Fog basically require magic to overcome (freedom of movement/gust of wind) and that spells like Divine Power serve to tip the balance in favor of magic users. Even spells like Improved Invisibility can cause severe issues, while 3rd level spells generally do not have this problem.

Most of us are operating on a "lean upwards" mentality, where we create feats that allow 1/day casting of non-broken 4th-level spells, like restoration, wall of fire, etc. Obviously, you can do what you want, but it seems like an 8th level cap would massively increase the workload for no real payoff.

The only 4th level spells I can see causing huge problems are stoneskin and polymorph. The latter I can see just eliminating it entirely. The former isn't that huge a deal, really. I could see it being about the only way a group of 8th level PCs could take a CR 12 dragon.


I am curious though - has anyone considered altering the spell advancement of wizards? I mean, it seems like *the* thing to do would be to alter the wizard's spell advancements. When I say wizards, I refer to all spellcasters, actually, though perhaps not bards, rangers and paladins... Like, what would happen if wizards got a new spell level every 3rd level instead of every 2nd level? You could reasonably push the levels out to about 11th level while still having to deal only with 4th level spells. You could slow BAB advancement and reduce hit dice so that excessive hit points or BAB didn't overbalance things.

Is the reason to maintain simplicity?

 

[der_kluge]

The big problem with 4th level spells is that the solution to most 4th level spells is another spell, so magic is only balanced with respect to itself, and not with non-magic-users.

Solid Fog is a death sentence for a non-magic type, unless you have the Dispel Magic, Gust of Wind, or Freedom of Movement to escape it, for example.

...going back to read some of the discussion...

It seems to me that the fundamental difference between whether one would prefer E6 vs. E8 is one of how they perceive their PCs in terms of their relationship to the rest of the (peasant) populace. A 6th level PC - as viewed by a peasant is a powerful force to be reckoned with, but who even caught off guard could still be taken down by a few thugs. An 8th level PC would be an order of magnitude more difficult to kill. Which, I think raises the game to a level that some people might not be comfortable with.

That is, if you view the "highest level" as being "badass peasants" than 6th level would be about right. Otherwise, 8th level starts to approach the level whereby the PCs gain access to "other-worldly" magic. I could see slowing the advancement between 6th and 8th, but I certainly believe that the world could support 8th level people - they should be rare. In this sense, "Elminster" or other iconic type characters could be 8th, and PCs could attain that level. Remember though that spells at this level would be nigh impossible to come by for wizards. So, in a way, the GM still has some control over what spells an 8th level wizard would have access to.

I'll have to read up on "ritual magic" as I'm not familiar with how that works.

 

[Ry]

Simplicity is the reason E6 doesn't have a ton of rules tacked onto it; I even made sure to keep Raising the stakes in a separate file. I think E6 with the rule being "D&D to 6th, then feats." really delivers the goods. Adding more options can then customize your campaign nicely. When you start tweaking the classes, it's hard not to tweak all the classes, and then your players have to learn a whole new game. It was important to me that D&D players could sit down and know what to do as soon as their asses were in chairs.

That said, I think you could do a great E6 game with a smaller class list, where, for example, bards were the closest thing to a core caster. That would be very midnight-like, and very awesome, game, without getting deep into class balance questions.

 

[tvar]

Another question... What do you typically do for undead and golems (and any other creatures brought into being by magic)? Do you usually just omit them, or do they exist by some other esoteric means? I'm just curious since they are pretty staple D&D monsters.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

Maybe those who REALLY want Level 5s and others as a critical plot element, or a one-time event, can treat them like epic spells with Spellcraft DCs equal to (spell level x 20), with the appropriate seeds and costs. The research costs (time, money, XP) alone would sufficiently mitigate this for the Leaning-Upward sort. Other Epic Spells could get a +100 to their DCs on principle.

Would that be workable?

 

[der_kluge]

Another question... What do you typically do for undead and golems (and any other creatures brought into being by magic)? Do you usually just omit them, or do they exist by some other esoteric means? I'm just curious since they are pretty staple D&D monsters.

They need the Craft Construct feat. Beyond that, there's nothing in the rules that say they can't make them. I can't imagine what kind of slaughter a party of 6th level characters would have against an iron golem, though. That'd be ugly.


Personally, I'd like to see Flesh Golems take on more of a "Frankenstein's monster" as I think they are intended to be. They are almost never portrayed that way in the game, though.

 

[Evilhalfling]

"A: My experience in D&D is that at around 6th level the characters are really nicely balanced, both in terms of balance against other classes, and against the CR system."

Has anyone examined the impact of including non-standard classes (i.e., duskblade, swordsage, psion, etc.) under the E6 variant? Are they still balanced against the standard classes or against each other? Or do they lose their uniqueness?

The Psion is fine, as long as wiz and sorc. can take feats for more spells per day - which the psion can do with the Psionic talent. Combining this with psionic body will break the psion with ever larger number of feats. Psions have lots of intresting things they can do with feats, so it would be most likely if one is created to start at high levels. Perhaps just ban psionic body? Otherwise it is a must have feat. ( I have an example psion character around this thread somewhere, and he will be reposted in plots and places)

Duskblade is probably broken, my regular game duskblade6 is nearly broken, and the class really shines in levels 3-8, they pay for it in no wow spells later - which never come in E6. the 1/day quickened True strike + shocking grasp(5d6) cast as part of a standard action? he can throw a lot of shocking grasps in a day.

No idea about Bo9S

 

[tvar]

They need the Craft Construct feat. Beyond that, there's nothing in the rules that say they can't make them.

No, they have caster requirements as well. According to the SRD: Clay requires CL11, Flesh CL8, Iron CL16, Stone CL14. Not to mention the spell prerequisites which may or may not exist in the E6 world (they are basically crafted just like magic items).

I am personally thinking about this from an E8 perspective since that is what I am thinking about running at some point. And the CRs for these golems are only 10, 7, 13, and 11 respectively, so certainly not outside the range of E8. I'm just curious what people think would be good explanations for why they exist since casters wouldn't be able to create them (except perhaps for the flesh golem).

Similarly for undead (except skeletons and zombies, which can be created just fine in E8 but not E6).