Eberron and the Book of Revelation

[Express]

first; i apologize to those whom this post may offend.

second; i will commend you for having the guts to speak out about a touchy subjct. i will not, however, commend your ideals.

third; I don't usually rant, but this really just drove me over the edge...

I swear by the stars above, this is why i'm a recovering catholic. I've revised this post too many times to count and i still think i come off as an ass, but this kind of... baseless, paranoid, insensitive, crass, juvenile, moronic, wortheless attempt at analysis that drives me absolutely nuts.

did you ever stop during this little sidetrip out of logic to imagine that just maybe your beleifs about good and evil aren't shared by everyone? did you ever stop to imagine that just maybe that book you swear by isn't the perfect answer to everything? do you actually consider this an excercise in rational critical thinking?

not to knock your beleifs, but you're really reading far more in to this than is healthy or necessary. its exactly this kind of thought that lead to the religous outcries in the eighties, and its the same thing used as the basis for the infamous religous tracts.

this kind of reactionary outrage where somebody sees soem thing as says "the bile tells me its evil so the whole thing is evil" is what has caused more strife and bloodshed than almost anyhting else in the history of our world. out of aguer curiosity, do you play a spellcaster in game, or do you use magic? cause magic is forbidden in the bible too. since your so concerned about symbols of evil I hope your not using magic.

is you character working on the sabbath? wearing two different threads? any idiot can quote a biblical pasage to make his case that something's evil, the real work in faith is thinking and incorporating everything you say into your life and sticking with it.

if you wanna live by the bible that's fine, but dont spout out only the parts that are easy to live with, the ones that are fun to heap as condemnation upon those you don't like and just quietly forget the rest. that's not real piety, its hate and fear hidden by a guise of religous superiority.

once again i apologize to all the people who probably were offeded by my post, but I've known far too many people who've been hurt, sometimes beyond the ability to heal by this kind of... spiteful thoughtlessness in the past, and I cannot just sit here and let it pass by.

Well I gues this thread needs to be closed now...

I have no problem with Kai Lords original post- I certainly dont think Kai Lord was "spouting". The parallels are interesting. While we've all been treading the fine line between discussing religion per se and D and D, there is no need for a personal attack, no matter how much you apologize before hand.

The original intent of the thread it seemed was to discuss the parallels, not Kai Lords or anyones faith or interpretation of religion. I guess we cant do that so a mod will have to close the thread now.

 

[cyferwolf]

....because of course only "right wing ideologues" push to suppress speech they disagree with.

Ahh, my kingdom for the banned *eye roll* icon...

exactly. the right wing bans what it disagress with. the left wing just wants to ban janet jackson.

 

[Gez]

Why couldn't these beasts be good?

Eberron's not Earth, its story is not the same. After all, the Adversary was the Lightbringer before the fall, what if he doesn't fall in Eberron?

 

[Celtavian]

re

Kai,

I've seen all these statements about "not looking down on people" before, and it's such a load of hooey. Your beliefs force you to judge other people based on their actions, you just don't take any action against them. This post is nothing more than religious zealotry. If you want to discuss Christian themes in the Eberron setting don't you think you should have went elsewhere.

Your post started off fine. Just a basic discussion. Your summation is nothing more than a mad Christian viewpoint reading too much into a gaming supplement. You won't play a dragon marked character because you feel it is too close to the book of revelations? That is utter madness.

I know your a nice guy who is part of the community. But c'mon now, get a grip. It's just a gaming supplement. Keith Baker was just adding something into the game. Dragon marks are more akin to tatoos, which people like. I think his ideas stem more from the idea that tatoos and dragons are cool, so I'll combine them than some great evil scheme by beasts in sheep's clothing drawn from revelations.

 

[tarchon]

Rapture - be pure!

The Book of Revelation describes three great beasts that will deceive the world and make war on the saints of God; one from heaven, one from the earth, and one from the sea (or the “Abyss” in some manuscripts.)

Eberron states “Eberron, figuratively and literally, is a world in three parts. Mythology suggests that the three parts correspond to three great dragons of legendary times—Siberyus, the Dragon Above; Khyber, the Dragon Below; and Eberron, the Dragon Between.” ECS p.129.

Eberron could be influenced by Revelation imagery, though literary references to biblical allegories aren't considered to be naturally unchristian by most Christians. For all we know, Eberron may have a big twist in which it turns out the dragons are really bad guys deceiving the world, which would be well in line with modern Charismatic interpretations of the Revelation. (Whether it's in line with ancient perceptions is debatable.)

The tripartite sky/earth/sea division has Classical antecedents though (e.g. the agreement among Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon to divide the world among themselves in that manner), so that may be an influence on Eberron or even on the Revelation for that matter. As to why the rulers of sky, earth, and sea are dragons? Well, it ain't called "Dungeons and Aardvarks." BTW, in Greek and Latin, "abyssos/abyssus" (literally "the bottomless") _can_ mean "the sea" in the same way we often call the sea "the deep" poetically, so abyss as in "Hell" and abyss as in "Ocean depths" are both possible interpretations, and indeed some early Christians may have thought of Hell as being "in" the Ocean depths. The Revelation is not known for excessive clarity anyway.

Dragonmarks are also fairly easily explicable by the "everything but the kitchen sink" mentality in the setting design. They tossed in pretty much anything that's hip and cool right now, and tattoos qualify pretty well. It would be pretty hard to take any mythological tradition and not perceive shards of it in something as syncretistic as Eberron.

 

[ayrwind]

i believe that kai lord has not enforced his belief on any other people, and i sure hope that those who do not agree with his thinking do the same, that is not to enforce their beliefs on others as well.

we are indeed as mentioned discussing the possibility and extent of parallelism between eberron and the book of revelations, and insight into this would be most appreciated. i view this thread with interest and would like to hear from people who agree and disagree with the observation.

those who are dying to preach and convert those Christians play the game differently should just ignore this thread. it would be a waste to see this interesting thread closed just becoz of a few individuals who turn this forum into a panel to bash Christians. perhaps i sense a desire of revenge against the attempts of how they were being persuaded to "convert" by other christians? oh well....

 

[Oncarou Na Gabriel]

In my own experience as someone who marvels at parallels and coincidence, I thought I'd chime in. Several of the other posters have mentioned that some symbolic imagery used in Revelations actually pre-dates the Bible (specifically serpent images), and it is notable that Christianity has been willing to adapt it's symbols and holy dates to make inclusion of new groups easier. I think it likely that, in the tranlation from the original language of the Bible (and all its later translations into more languages), that symbolic images were used where no literal translation could describe the fullness of the concept presented.

I have studied the arts, science, philosophy, religion, and find a huge number of parallels between numerous concepts in all these fields. I also think that the symbolic images and these other parallels may be hardwired into our brains, as a beginning for common concepts that make translation possible.

What I'm taking the long way of saying is, the universe is full of patterns and parallels, and the ones in Eberron and the Book of Revelations predate both works, and will undoubtedly find expression in future works in more forms to confound and delight. One of the great things is that while parallels will follow a broad pattern, they don't inevitably reach the same conclusion each time.

 

[dvvega]

Ever since I've been roleplaying, I've been amazed at the number of people that attack someone who draws parallels to mythology and idealogy. KaiLord simply described parallels he had drawn between his own religion's mythology and idealogy and the Eberron setting.

He then goes on to make statements regarding his personal preference for playing in the Eberron setting. That is his CHOICE and his CAMPAIGN. As far as any intelligent person can tell from his post, he is not attacking Eberron.

Another poster has mentioned that all writers/creators are influenced by things they have seen, read, heard of, witnessed. Even George Lucas' used his own religous knowledge for Star Wars, and the Matrix was full of symbology as well.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with KaiLord's parallels. He isn't preaching to us to stop playing Eberron, nor to use Eberron as he has stated he will be using it. He started the threads that got Keith to answer questions about his own setting, so it's not like he's trying to stop the sales of Eberron or start a conspiracy.

Accusing him of reading too much into it is like saying "The Lord of the Rings" has no implications except that it is a story. Many scholars have argued what it really was about for decades - the industrial revolution spreading out and destroying the small country village - but does that mean they read too much into it? As long as we are able to think we can draw parallels between anything. The Matrix - obvious Christian parallels, Star Wars - ditto.

Now just because I drew parallels between the Matrix and Star Wars does that mean I'm telling you all to not watch them? Or not to play Star Wards d20? Or do I have to also mention that I'm a Christian as well? Is that what caused all the animosity against KaiLord? Because of D&D's history in the Christianity forum? If he had said he was a Satanist and he would like to use this parallel to have the dragons win and take over the physical world (which they do in Revelations) would you have reacted the same way? Or if he mentioned he partook of the ancient Babylonian religions?

KaiLord thank you for bringing the parallels to my attention. In fact I was pretty apathetic bordering on "pfft" with Eberron. Even a player in my campaign said he bought the book and wasn't impressed. You may have just earnt WOTC another sale.

As someone who has studied parallels in religions for quite some years now, I'm highly interested in anything that uses symbology and mythology from various sources.

For those of you that asked the question "can a Christian play D&D out of the box" - of course they can. The biggest argument that Christianity uses is slightly flawed (as most arguments designed to win). If you are of strong mind, nothing will coerce you unless you want it to. There have been cases of mentally border-line people going over the edge with D&D but they have also been involved with drugs, or relaity-orientated dementias. If, as a Christian, you are uncomfortable with something, don't use it - Demons/Devils for example. Do you really need those things to play D&D out of the box. I personally don't use every single monster in the Monster Manual in my world. Does that mean I'm not playing out of the box?

Well I'm ranting now I guess ... so I'm off.

 

[Shadowdancer]

I think Kai Lord's true intentions for starting this thread were reflected in his original title for the thread.

While I find the similarities he mentioned between Eberron and the Book of Revelations interesting, I don't think they were intentional. But if they were, so what? Using the setting as written would not make me an evil or less spiritual person. I would have to have a pretty weak moral character if a simple game could so easily change my spiritual beliefs, or cause me to perform evil acts in real life.

I often wonder about people who are afraid that games, or music, or movies, or TV shows, or fiction books will cause them to do things they otherwise wouldn't do. There are plenty of actors of various religions who can play evil characters on stage or in a movie, and it doesn't affect who they are in their personal life. Authors write stories about evil characters, and sometimes the bad guys even win; doesn't make the author evil. Not everyone who listened to The Beatles' "White Album" was Charles Manson. Alice Cooper is the son of a minister; his onstage persona is not how he lives his life off stage. He plays golf with Pat Boone, for goodness sake.

 

[Celtavian]

re

dvvega,

The drawing of parallels to religion or myth is fine. It is the summation where Kai Lord makes it sound as though playing a dragonmarked character is somehow akin to accepting the mark of the beast from revelations is a little whacky. If someone like Jack Chick saw such a post, they could use it as ammunition against D&D. I don't think Kai Lord in particular was intending it this way, but the statement concerning dragonmarks and not playing them because you think it will endanger your spirit is really out there.

When you have to make statements in your initial post that you are not judging people, that should be a heads up that you are judging people. I read the post and I saw "beware Christian gamers" once I reached the end of it.

It started off as a harmless discussion of parallels and turned into a "the dragonmarked are marked by the beast and shouldn't be played by Christians". Read that summation. It is definitely stated from the Christian perspective with the idea that that WotC and Keith Baker have somehow inadvertently "put a positive spin on Satanic imagery" as indicated by the following statement:

Now I can’t presume to know what’s in the heart of any other person, but I honestly don’t believe that Keith Baker and the designers at WOTC were trying to create a game setting that takes the imagery of Satan, his antichrists, and the mark of the beast and puts an alluring or positive spin on any of it. But I do believe that is the end result. At least two of Eberron’s progenitor dragons are good guys, depicted as the creators of the world and its inhabitants. And the marks themselves give all kinds of fantastic benefits in addition to the boon in commerce.

It is a pretty blatant statement. It is definitely religious zealotry. I'm sure alot of people on this board are Christian and will defend their fellow Christian. We'll see what is said when a moderator looks at it. Maybe they won't see it the same way I do, but who can say. (No, I'm not reporting it to a mod. I never report things to a mod, and I probably never will.)

Kai Lord himself is the one inadvertently putting Satanic imagery into the Eberron setting, not Keith Baker or WotC. His beliefs are shaping his views of the setting which has nothing to do with the Book of Revelations.

I agree, some people way overreach on Lord of the Rings, as though a man cannot tell a tale for no other reason than wanting to tell a tale. Keith Baker and Wotc wanted to design and publish a setting, that is what they did. This kind of borderline religously charged interpretation is really unnecessary and is similar to the misrepresentation of D&D as Satanic by people like Jack Chick.