Eberron = power creep or just pushing the envelope?

[Knight Otu]

I don't know what percentage of the army they compose. Anyone?

According to this thread, part of a post by Keith Baker:

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]And indeed, with the exception of small, elite units I would not expect to see an army comprised entirely of warforged. An individual warforged may not be a tank (that would be a warforged titan or jugernaut), but I would see it as being the equivalent of heavy cavalry: expensive, elite, and serving a specific function.[/font]

 

[Tzarevitch]

In the real world, most resources in a war are devoted to logistics. For every combat unit you have several units in the rear providing logistical support to that unit. The war time advantages of the Warforged in my mind are the following:

1) Limited logistical needs. Warforged need no food, water, or standard supplies. This is a huge advantage in time of war. A division of human troops would likely only have 1/3 to 1/2 of that division devoted to actual combat, the rest would be the logistical train that keeps them well fed, ect. A warforged unit would need infrequent and limited logistical support to operate at 100% efficiency.

Modern units DO have very high logisitical needs, medieval tech level units much less so. You are assuming a very 19th-21st century level of logistics. You are really just providing food and water and experts to provide equipment replacement and maintenance. The costs of paying groups of these specialists even for an entire year is not very high compared to the tens of thousands of gold it takes to construct even ONE of the cheapest of golems in the MM, and warforged are in many ways (durability not being one of them) more advanced than anything short of an epic golem. (10,000gp is the material cost to make a flesh golem, the cheapest golem I can find in the MM SRD and the flesh golem is not even intelligent or capable of learning new skills or employing tactics.) Also the fact that according to the book, it is now nearly impossible to make more warforged, implies that the process is not at all easy or cheap. SOMETHING about the process is very difficult to do otherwise more people would do it.

I do however agree with your basic argument to a point that warforged do have lower logistical needs. They do still however require specialists (blacksmiths, carpenters etc.) for equipment repairs, and replacement equipment and those are actually the bulk of the logistical costs for an army. The only thing you are saving is food and water. Remember, you are not serving your troops smoked caviar. Cheese, bread, meat jerkey and water in bulk don't cost all that much compared to skilled craftsmen's salaries, replacement iron, wood and stone as well as portable forges, new tools, etc..In fact, the warforged don't save all that much logistically and I argue that what you are saving certainly isn't worth what you are paying.

2) They do not tire or need sleep, and thus can outmaneuver living units.

This is true, however if you are paying 10,000gp to construct each one compared to maybe 10gp per year for regular infantry troops, I argue that that the warforged does not provide a 1000% improvement or even close. Even in the setting, the Kaarnathi skeletons and zombies are better in every way than the warforged and they are cheaper, faster and easier to make. They also are intelligent and subservient AND have all of the undead immunities, making them rather tough opponents.

3) Eborron is a world of magic as industry. Each warforged is not likely individually crafted (Except for prototype models), but instead is industrially manufactured by low level magic users with the use of magical devices. Industry can keep churning them out on a consistent basis that can outpace human population growth.

Yes the setting does use industrial magic, but we are not talking Henry Ford's assembly line here. From the descriptions in the book it seemed to require specialists to construct them; House Cannith on one hand and national governments on the other. In over 30 years of production of the modern (intelligent) version only a couple of nations ever fielded an "army" of these and most only had a token number.

With populations of about 2 million souls I am assuming that the entire professional army of a kingdom in peacetime is no more than 50,000 (approx 1 in 40 of the population). In wartime it can probably swell to 200,000 by adding in local militias, conscripted toops and peasant levies. This total probably can't be sustained for long as 1 in 10 of the population under arms is going to shred your economy. There is no way that warforged production can match those numbers with the minimal production facilities listed and there is no way they hope to match the cost of human reproduction to a national government (free).

4) Before the end of the war they were property, if they are destroyed you are not losing part of your populace and do not have to expend as much political capitol dealing with their loss. (losing an entire division of humans would hit a kingdom much harder then losing an entire division of constructs).

I disagree. If you spent 10,000gp per warforged (assuming base manufacturing cost of a flesh golem as a comparision) and fielded a legion of 1,000 of them that is 10 million gp before you even equip them. That is a huge chunk of a national economy, far more than 1,000 people is worth to a nation which has a population of a couple of million people. Note also that is possible more than all the commoners in the kingdom are paying in taxes for an entire year. No nation can possibly afford to sustain such losses. 1,000 peasant levies or regular infantry however, that is another story. It costs the government nothing to make more. Human nature takes care of that on its own.

Assuming rural family sizes of 6-10 children or so and assuming that they have children at about 15-18 or so you can take the loss of 1000 troops without too much problem especially with a base population in the millions. This also doesn't take into account mercenaries from other areas that you can hire in the short term or creatures that you can summon or undead you can raise to significantly supplement your troops, all for far less than a single unit of warforged will probably cost. In the short term a nation of 2 million couldn't keep loosing 1000 batches of its population on a regular basis, but in the long term that isn't that much. A nasty plague or a drought can wipe out that many by freak accident.

You are again assuming a very modern value on human life. This goes hand in hand with modern democracies. The United States for example has historically been very wealthy and has placed a high value on the life of its citizenry to the point where it would spend lavish sums of money on equipment to keep casualties low. World War II was a very good example of this. Part of the reason the US did this is that it had the cash to pay the cost and paying the cash was cheaper politically than explaining to large numbers of voters that their beloved children are dead. A better Eberon analogy would be Tsarist Russia and later the U.S.S.R. where the government is an autocracy of some sort and it was cheaper to loose population than to loose expensive equipment. Polulation grows back after all, and they don't vote. (They CAN rebel however so you don't wan't to loose too many.)

5) Shortened Training time. If the warforged are not created with inherent combat knowledge, they pick it up real quick (seeing as the last warforged are only 2 years old and can be adventures all ready).

Look at the basic warforged. They are not created with any inherent knowledge. They learn as people do. The difference is that they have no "childhood" per say.

There would likely be more up front cost to a warforged soldier, but much less operational cost. Their limited logistical needs and expendability (in comparison to human/elvaan/dwarven troops) make a very valuable asset in large scale warfare.

I agree with the point about limited logistical needs to a point (see my argument above). Something that probably costs tens of thousands of gp per unit to make and has a relatively low production rate is never expendable except in the direst of need. Certainly not in the large scale. You'll bankrupt yourself long before you win.

Tzarevitch

 

[Brisk-sg]

That may be true of modern armies, but not ancient ones. The Romans certainly didn't have 50% of their manpower tied up in logistics. Armies back then had a much greater ability to live off the land. Even still, a few low level clerics with wands of Create Food would give a similar benefit with significantly reduced cost. If I can hire 5 orcs for the price of one warforged, does it really matter if 2 of those 5 orcs are dedicated to supply lines?

These constructs would have would have an advantage in maneuverability unless dealing with swampy/muddy terrain or naval transport. Here their great weight would be a huge disadvantage.


Aaron

It is true that many medieval armies did not have a well structured logistical systems. It is inaccurate that the Roman's did not however. It was one of the things that made the Roman war machine so efficient and powerful. As to how many people kept each soldier in supply I am not sure, it likely is less then 50% for the roman's, I am not certain of this.

http://www.hyw.com/Books/History/Logistic.htm
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1999/1999-11-01.html

It is true that an army can operate without a logistical system. But an army that does not have an effective logistical system will not be nearly as effective as one that does. Living off the land was/is much less efficient then a good logistical system. Each man needs a couple of pounds of food a day, and each mount many times that in feed. If these requirements are not met, the troops would first go hungry and then most of them would either desert or, if you were far from friendly territory, starve to death or be picked off by enemy troops. Furthermore, living off the land is a big time sink, greatly slowing an army.

Eberron is a campaign setting that is more akin to Renaissance Europe then Medieval Europe. There are the equivalent to trains for instance (which revolutionized logistics in real life as well). I believe that many of the more effective militaries would have developed logistical systems during a hundred years of war. In real history, foraging fell out of favor in England and France during the Hundred Year war as a result of rampant campaigning, and thus rampant foraging.

Wands of Create Food and Water probably would have been used during the war (since the war wasn't only fought by Warforged). However, the ongoing costs of Wands of Create Food and Water would not be cheap and would have to be renewed as well (operational cost). The soldiers would likely be paid (operational cost). The soldiers have to be supplied with weapons, armor, clothing, sleeping gear, and environmental specific gear (operational cost). During periods of reduced warfare entire armies of humans would probably be disbanded to reduce operational costs. When all-out war flared back up new units would have to be redrafted, trained, and then fielded (upfront cost and then operation cost).

A warforged unit would be built (upfront cost) and then kept in the armies for a long period of time (this is changed by the treaty that is signed to end the war, though some nations got around this through indentured servitude) with a minimal operating cost. Remember, this is periods of all-out war (entire regions were destroyed), and not just brief and occasional engagements. It is stated in the book that all nations had at least a contingent of Waforged, though some armies had many and some had few.

I agree that their weight would be a disadvantage in some circumstances.

Also, manpower is a limited resource. The assumption that half-orcs are cheaper implies that there are an abundance of half orcs for you army. A half-orc could make as good of a soldier on the actual battle field, but do they really cost less over time? And can you continuesly field large armies of them? Half orcs are probally a bad example since the books states they are rare.

I think there are logical reasons for the Warforged to exist.

 

[Driddle]

The warforged ...

The setting requires some small amount of ROLEplaying, and as such the Warforged race balances nicely. The standard races (dwarves, elves, etc.) have access to campaign resources and character development options that the new races (warforged, shifter, etc.) are lacking -- such as dragonmarks. To see that balance in play, however, the DM and players will need to be involved in good ol' fashioned storytelling, not just hack-and-slash scenarios.

 

[Knight Otu]

(10,000gp is the material cost to make a flesh golem, the cheapest golem I can find in the MM SRD and the flesh golem is not even intelligent or capable of learning new skills or employing tactics.)

That is a bad comparison. Warforged are much weaker than any golem on most levels - Less Hit Dice, and thus less durable (they have no racial HD); They are not immune to magic; Even with an Adamantine Body, they have a lower DR; At medium size, they are smaller than most golems; and as an extension, they have a lower Strength score. A much better comparison would be Warforged titans and a golem.

I remember reading that Warforged were created with a basic "skill set", that is as a fighter, or wizard, or any other class. I'll see if I can find that post (unless it has changed in the book, of course).

 

[Zerovoid]

That is a bad comparison. Warforged are much weaker than any golem on most levels - Less Hit Dice, and thus less durable (they have no racial HD); They are not immune to magic; Even with an Adamantine Body, they have a lower DR; At medium size, they are smaller than most golems; and as an extension, they have a lower Strength score. A much better comparison would be Warforged titans and a golem.

I remember reading that Warforged were created with a basic "skill set", that is as a fighter, or wizard, or any other class. I'll see if I can find that post (unless it has changed in the book, of course).

I thought I read on the wizard boards once that an average warforged, when created, was probably a Fighter 2 or something like that. This gives a substantial advantage over a human Warrior 1 in a fight.

Also, warforged do not bleed to death. When reduced to -1 through -10, they simply stop. If you suffer any casualties but posess the field of battle afterward, you can repair almost all your fallen warforged troops.

And, all this speculatation that a warforged costs 10000 gp seems a little much to me. If they're alot weaker than a flesh gollum, they probably cost alot less to make. Maybe House Cannith has some special artifact that lets them be made for 100gp, or they are made from dragon shards or something.

And from what other people have been saying, the warforged were far outnumbered on the field of battle by human troops. They probably weren't a good deal most of the time, but obviously they were useful some of the time.

 

[Brisk-sg]

Modern units DO have very high logisitical needs, medieval tech level units much less so. You are assuming a very 19th-21st century level of logistics. You are really just providing food and water and experts to provide equipment replacement and maintenance.

I agree that you do not have as much need as a modern army for supply. But food, water, and equipment do need to be acquired and moved to the front.

The costs of paying groups of these specialists even for an entire year is not very high compared to the tens of thousands of gold it takes to construct even ONE of the cheapest of golems in the MM, and warforged are in many ways (durability not being one of them) more advanced than anything short of an epic golem. (10,000gp is the material cost to make a flesh golem, the cheapest golem I can find in the MM SRD and the flesh golem is not even intelligent or capable of learning new skills or employing tactics.)

I disagree that a standard warforged would cost 10,000 gp to create. There are four constructs listed in the Eberron campaign setting with listed prices for construction. The Iron Defender (2 HD, CR 1) costs 1,250 gp + 93 xp to build. It can be built by a lvl 4 Artificer. Also there is the dedicated wright, these constructs carry out the process of item creation on behalf of its master (master only pays gold and xp cost, and spends 1 hour initiating the process).

Also the fact that according to the book, it is now nearly impossible to make more warforged, implies that the process is not at all easy or cheap. SOMETHING about the process is very difficult to do otherwise more people would do it.

Per pg 22, as part of the Treaty of Thronehold, House Cannith was forbidden to produce any more warforged, the creation forges were shut down and destroyed. It shows a picture of a creation forge, they appear to be large magical devices. Two sources of new warforged currently operate in secret. Merrix d'Cannith, grandson of the original creator, continues to run an illegal creation forge in the bowels of Sharn. To preserve his secret, Merrix is circumspect and runs the creation forge only sparingly (implying that when run at full it can produce a noticeable amount of warforged).

The other source is the Lord of Blades, who controls the remains of the Cannith forge that once operated in Cyre. He hasn't really mastered the process, and the forge was damaged in the disaster that destroyed the nation, so he can only produce new warforged slowly and in small numbers (once again implying that they can be produced in large numbers by a single forge).

I do however agree with your basic argument to a point that warforged do have lower logistical needs. They do still however require specialists (blacksmiths, carpenters etc.) for equipment repairs, and replacement equipment and those are actually the bulk of the logistical costs for an army. The only thing you are saving is food and water. Remember, you are not serving your troops smoked caviar. Cheese, bread, meat jerkey and water in bulk don't cost all that much compared to skilled craftsmen's salaries, replacement iron, wood and stone as well as portable forges, new tools, etc..In fact, the warforged don't save all that much logistically and I argue that what you are saving certainly isn't worth what you are paying.

I agree that they do have some logistical needs. But the difference is they can operate without the specialists with minimal losses due to starvation, disease, and standard environmental conditions. Once they engage the enemy, having the specialist to repair damage units would help prevent battle field losses.

This is true, however if you are paying 10,000gp to construct each one compared to maybe 10gp per year for regular infantry troops, I argue that that the warforged does not provide a 1000% improvement or even close. Even in the setting, the Kaarnathi skeletons and zombies are better in every way than the warforged and they are cheaper, faster and easier to make. They also are intelligent and subservient AND have all of the undead immunities, making them rather tough opponents.

I do not believe a warforged costs 10k to build. See my above reasoning. And 10 gp per year for a regular infantry soldier! Per the DMG, pg 105, a lvl 1 warrior (who is not nearly as good as a lvl 1 Warforged Fighter) cost 2 sp per day, this does not include materials, tools, or weapons. That comes to roughly 70 gp per year for his pay, not including the costs of food, water, armor, weapons, and training time (if any). Just to be clear, I am not arguing that warforged replaced normal human troops. They are simply another TYPE of soldier in the war.

Yes the setting does use industrial magic, but we are not talking Henry Ford's assembly line here. From the descriptions in the book it seemed to require specialists to construct them; House Cannith on one hand and national governments on the other. In over 30 years of production of the modern (intelligent) version only a couple of nations ever fielded an "army" of these and most only had a token number.

The descriptions of warforged don't seem to point at specialists creating one at a time. See my above reasoning. I agree that they seldom fielded whole armies composed of them. I am just stating that they make sense for use in the war.

With populations of about 2 million souls I am assuming that the entire professional army of a kingdom in peacetime is no more than 50,000 (approx 1 in 40 of the population). In wartime it can probably swell to 200,000 by adding in local militias, conscripted troops and peasant levies. This total probably can't be sustained for long as 1 in 10 of the population under arms is going to shred your economy. There is no way that warforged production can match those numbers with the minimal production facilities listed and there is no way they hope to match the cost of human reproduction to a national government (free).

I agree that the 200,000 can not be easily maintained for long. I disagree that the warforged cannot be produced in large numbers. Also, I am not saying warforged replaced the human soldier. They would likely be used as part of the active peacetime army, and not scrapped at the end of a conflict.

I disagree. If you spent 10,000gp per warforged (assuming base manufacturing cost of a flesh golem as a comparison) and fielded a legion of 1,000 of them that is 10 million gp before you even equip them. That is a huge chunk of a national economy, far more than 1,000 people is worth to a nation which has a population of a couple of million people. Note also that is possible more than all the commoners in the kingdom are paying in taxes for an entire year. No nation can possibly afford to sustain such losses. 1,000 peasant levies or regular infantry however, that is another story. It costs the government nothing to make more. Human nature takes care of that on its own.

Assuming rural family sizes of 6-10 children or so and assuming that they have children at about 15-18 or so you can take the loss of 1000 troops without too much problem especially with a base population in the millions. This also doesn't take into account mercenaries from other areas that you can hire in the short term or creatures that you can summon or undead you can raise to significantly supplement your troops, all for far less than a single unit of warforged will probably cost. In the short term a nation of 2 million couldn't keep loosing 1000 batches of its population on a regular basis, but in the long term that isn't that much. A nasty plague or a drought can wipe out that many by freak accident.

I agree that it can absorb the occasional loss of 1000 troops. But the war seems to be on a pretty epic scale based on some of the descriptions, and the losses likely were heavy. Karrnath took heavy losses during the war, and along with widespread famine and rampant disease was almost knocked out of the war by the 3rd decade. Their king decided to raise the undead (ignoring objections) as their primary tool for war.

Look at the basic warforged. They are not created with any inherent knowledge. They learn as people do. The difference is that they have no "childhood" per say.

I haven't found any evidence one way or the other about this. They either have inherent knowledge, or they learn it before being shipped out.

I agree with the point about limited logistical needs to a point (see my argument above). Something that probably costs tens of thousands of gp per unit to make and has a relatively low production rate is never expendable except in the direst of need. Certainly not in the large scale. You'll bankrupt yourself long before you win.

If you assumption of tens of thousands of gp per unit, and a low production is correct then I agree. However, I believe that they cost less then that and have a high production. Too bad there is no hard data in the book to prove it either way. Also, one other point is the expense of 10k is relative to the economy of each nation. We don't really know how much capitol they have.

 

[d4]

I agree that their weight would be a disadvantage in some circumstances.

not really. it was posted upthread that the average warforged weighs about 260 to 310 pounds.

a warforged + weapon would weigh about the same as a human + weapon + armor + logistical gear (food, water, bedroll, etc.).

 

[Hamburger Mary]

Lots of interesting discussion... a few quick posts.

To reinforce what Otu has said, I know that Hellcow has said that the typical warforged would possess PC class levels, and that most would start off as 2nd-level fighters. This makes the warforged far more dangerous on an individual level than the typical human recruits, especially since PC classes are supposed to be somewhat less common in Eberron -- so a troop of 100 fighters would be an impressive force. I think this ties into that "small elite unit" thing quoted above. There was some discussion of why your PC warforged might start off at 1st-level given this fact; the main point was that even if you were a wounded or prototype "budget" warforged at first level, as a PC you still possessed greater potential to advance than most warforged.

But the point is that a warforged would come into existence as an elite unit.

As for cost, the big thing to remember is that the warforged were created through the use of a mysterious artifact (creation forges). They *can't* be created by normal artificers. I would assume that the forge streamlines the process and allows them to be created at a lower price than one might logically assume; the point is that you can't make them without it (and if you made a warforged-sized golem, it would probably be more expensive than the warforged itself).

As to healing, big thing to remember: warforged can be repaired by Craft skills, and if they have Craft skills, they can repair themselves. This is limited, but it does mean that the warforged raiding unit that drops behind enemy lines is actually better off than a human unit, if the human unit has no spellcasters. When you combine this with the fact that warforged don't bleed, it means that after a battle, warforged crafters can salvage any 'forged that hasn't been completely destroyed and get it moving again.

 

[Graf]

Warforged armies (or why a warforged army would be created)

A warforged army would be pretty damn incredible compared to a human or elven army
I've heard it mentioned more than once that war is about logistics... whole campaigns have been decided by resources like food, especially in the pre-modern period.. An invading army can be stopped and delayed by razing the land in front of them, by raiding their supply lines. An army of warforged is an order of magnitude more dangerous than an army of humans because they just don't have these problems.
Furthermore they don't have the same moral problems as a living army would. They don't feel hunger, they don't mind having to walk all night, they don't get tired, they've never had families (and don't miss them), no-one has ever told them "killing is wrong", if they aren't considered people they don't have much to look forward to society and little incentive to run off in the night, as they're slaves (who have never had any possessions) you don't have to pay them (and they aren't likely to miss having money).
Morale is important in battles and campaigns. Warforged -might- have morale problems, but not like an army of the living, and they probably wouldn't cost very much at all.

Anyone with one of 4 craft skills can fix a warforged
One advantage of a warforged army that people aren't looking at is that they never die. Unless a warforged is taken down to -10 it can be picked up, repaired and put back on the battlefield (and with DR 2 they can endure a lot post combat abuse).
It seems logical to me that Warforged would take the craft skill themselves. If half of a conventional force is wiped out in a pitched battle your army is just smaller. Those people are dead; you spend a few days burying them and try to get by.
A force of warforged could repair itself and get back into the game in a few days; they would loose a few units certainly, but the rest would be repaired (and have more xp).

PS For the last time they CAN be CURED by cure spells. (look at Anax's post again on the prior page).