Eberron = power creep or just pushing the envelope?

[Tzarevitch]

I agree that you do not have as much need as a modern army for supply. But food, water, and equipment do need to be acquired and moved to the front.

The only difference is consumables. Equipment still has to be moved to the front even for a warforged unit. Presumaly they also need equipment to be repaired too since they don't do it magically, unless one is using magic that is.

I disagree that a standard warforged would cost 10,000 gp to create. There are four constructs listed in the Eberron campaign setting with listed prices for construction. The Iron Defender (2 HD, CR 1) costs 1,250 gp + 93 xp to build. It can be built by a lvl 4 Artificer. Also there is the dedicated wright, these constructs carry out the process of item creation on behalf of its master (master only pays gold and xp cost, and spends 1 hour initiating the process).

Those are homonculi. They are not self-aware and are by no means "alive". They are mobile extensions of their creator and nothing more. It says as much under their description.

Warforged are thinking and self-aware and capable of self-improvement. That is a huge advance over most constructs and that undoubtably costs money. The only constructs that I am aware of that are really self-aware are the maug in the Fiend Folio (who fill a similar role to the warforged BTW and also cost 10,000gp to make).

I agree that they do have some logistical needs. But the difference is they can operate without the specialists with minimal losses due to starvation, disease, and standard environmental conditions. Once they engage the enemy, having the specialist to repair damage units would help prevent battle field losses.

They still need the specialists to repair their equipment unless trained to do so. The difference between them and living troops is that they don't need consumables.

I do not believe a warforged costs 10k to build. See my above reasoning. And 10 gp per year for a regular infantry soldier! Per the DMG, pg 105, a lvl 1 warrior (who is not nearly as good as a lvl 1 Warforged Fighter) cost 2 sp per day, this does not include materials, tools, or weapons. That comes to roughly 70 gp per year for his pay, not including the costs of food, water, armor, weapons, and training time (if any). Just to be clear, I am not arguing that warforged replaced normal human troops. They are simply another TYPE of soldier in the war.

The closest things I can find to the Warforged are the Maug and they cost 10,000gp to build. I find it very hard to believe that you can functionally build a mechanical person for much less than that. Perhaps 5,000gp at lowest.

I agree that they warforged are specialist troops regardless of what the Eberon book says, my argument is that WoTC watered their capabilities down so much that they are not much better than a standard soldier and they aren't. They are slightly more durable (marginally higher CON and 25% resistance to crit hits). They don't require consumables (a minor consideration). They are not subject to disease (a useful consideration in the long run), and they are tireless (again useful) but this hardly represents a huge improvement over an equivalent human or an orc and you don't need to spend up front capital to make them. You also aren't dependent on a artifact (which must be an astronomical sum of money itself) for their creation.

They also make a very poor comparison to the Karrnathi battle undead both of which are tougher, stronger and equally as tireless and fill a similar battlefield role. You can also raise undead faster and by reusing materials (corpses of those who fought and died) to boot.

The descriptions of warforged don't seem to point at specialists creating one at a time. See my above reasoning. I agree that they seldom fielded whole armies composed of them. I am just stating that they make sense for use in the war.

I think my point got lost in the argument I made earlier. I am not saying that they aren't useful, particularly in small numbers and as specialist units such as shock troops or commandos. I am arguing that in making the warforged playable at +0 LA, they watered their capabilities down too much to the point where they are not much better than ordinary troops that you can muster much more cheaply and in vast numbers. I can still see the nations of Eberon building them in small numbers as specialist troops because they do have some advantages, just not that many.

Personally I love the concept of the warforged. I just think they should have given them the full set of construct capabilities and increased their LA to +2 or so. THAT would have made them a worthwhile improvement over human troops because they are resistant to damage, and can function in all enviornments day or night.

I haven't found any evidence one way or the other about this. They either have inherent knowledge, or they learn it before being shipped out.

They don't have inherent knowledge. They don't have base skill bonuses, bonus feats or anything that they start with that would indicate inherent knowledge. It would seem that they learn it before they are shipped out. Again, something you have to do with regular troops.

Tzarevitch

 

[Hamburger Mary]

That is a huge advance over most constructs and that undoubtably costs money.

I must respectfully disagree. I'm just going to be repeating what I said in my previous post, but... the warforged were not created using standard magical techniques. They were created using the creation forges, which are artifacts with unknown capabilities. It's thus possible that we are discussing the difference between building a car by hand and building one with a fully modern assembly line and team of engineers at your disposal. Since we don't know the capabilities or nature of the creation forges, we don't know that they are expensive to use. This is not the case of an isolated wizard building a personalized golem -- it is a house of artificers that has been around for centuries, making use of a powerful magical artifact to enhance their capabilities.

They still need the specialists to repair their equipment unless trained to do so. The difference between them and living troops is that they don't need consumables.

Craft is a class skill for the fighter. A 2nd-level fighter -- listed as the most common form of warforged can have 5 ranks of Craft, which is quite serviceable. Split them up between armorers, weaponsmiths, and fletchers and the army can repair damage to itself and its equipment.

You also aren't dependent on a artifact (which must be an astronomical sum of money itself) for their creation.

Well, depending on the nature of it, artifacts are priceless. The question is where the artifacts came from. I doubt that they were built for the war or specifically for the warforged -- Cannith has been around for over a thousand years. There is also the evidence that warforged were used in Xen'drik, and the slight implication that Cannith may have lifted the knowledge of their construction from Xen'drik. So again, I think this isn't an expense you can tack onto the warforged themselves; it's a pre-existing resource that facilitates their construction.

They don't have inherent knowledge. They don't have base skill bonuses, bonus feats or anything that they start with that would indicate inherent knowledge. It would seem that they learn it before they are shipped out. Again, something you have to do with regular troops.

That's been clearly contradicted by Hellcow on the WotC boards. *ALL* warforged do not have the SAME inherent knowledge -- IE, skill bonuses -- because the race is designed to be flexible; you could build a wizard warforged or a fighter warforged, and there is no need for them to possess the same skills. But it's clearly established that they would be "born" with their skills. Hellcow specifically said that the standard warforged would come off the line with the skills and abilities of a 2nd-level fighter (using the elite array, no less), as described below:

Warforged Ftr2; CR 2; Medium humanoid (living construct); HD 2d10+6; hp 21; Init +1; Spd 20 ft; AC 21 (+1 Dex, +2 heavy steel shield, +8 Adamantine Body); Base Atk +2; Grap +4; Atk +4 melee (1d8+2, longsword); Full Atk +4 melee (1d8+2, longsword); SQ Damage reduction 2/adamantine, warforged traits; AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +0; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Craft (armorsmith) +5, Intimidate +3; Adamantine Body, Cleave, Power Attack.

Note the Craft skill.

You do make an interesting point about Karrn undead. However, this would be where the rivalry between Thrane and Karrnath would be a particular issue, since theocratic Thrane would probably have commanders who could turn the undead forces. As for ease of creation, note that the skeletons have been "treated alchemically", "imbued with malign intelligence", and "created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers" (emphasis added) -- so we don't know how difficult they are to make, either. But you're right, setting aside the possibility of turning, the skeletons do make a solid match for the base warforged.