Eberron's Worth...

[Jedi_Solo]

My entire point wasn't that warforged are or are not robots. There are viable points for both sides of the argument. I really like the Tim Woodsman analogy. Warforged are much, much closer to the Tin Woodsman than they are to... say... Data from Star Trek: The Next generation.

But most (in my experience at least) of the "bashers" who talk about the "robots" say, either directly or so that it is strongly implied, that "robots shouldn't be in D&D" thus indicating that robots were not in D&D before Eberron.

It is that point (that D&D didn't have constructs/golems/robots before Eberron) that I have a problem with. What is an Iron Golem if not a robot?

...

(besides a construct)

 

[Jer]

Golems in DnD, and their folklore source, are small-scale creations that live for an adventure or two, turn on their maker and are destroyed.

Sure, if you want to just use the folklore version golems aren't very golem-like. Nor are kobolds very kobold-like, goblins aren't very goblin-like, and a lot of other D&D creatures don't fit the mold of their folklore models. (As an example, other than in Ravenloft I've never had a golem turn on its creator in a D&D session).

I think of warforged more like the iron golem character in the old "Forgotten Realms" comic book that DC put out oh-so long ago. The golem had a human soul trapped within it, and so it isn't quite the same, but the personality of a warforged isn't really that of an "AI" either, but more of a living creature than something artificial (hence the "living construct" monniker that they created for Eberron and has been cropping up elsewhere ever since).

And if you're running Tolkein/Howard inspired D&D fantasy, then not liking "warforged" or other non-traditional non-human types is fine - that's how you like your game, good enough. But as much as I like the Tolkein/Howard inspired D&D stereotypical D&D fantasy flavor, I often want something different. And Eberron is different enough to be a fun fantasy setting without being so different that I feel that I might as well be playing something other than D&D.

 

[Maggan]

Sometimes I suspect that a large part of the fantasy audience knows hardly anything about the relevant time-periods in history, folk lore, mythology, et. al.

Why only "sometimes"? Most people don't know the historic or mythical facts behind the things they enjoy. Most people enjoy Lord of the Rings without any prior knowledge about what came before, or what influences shaped the book or movies. Same with Star Wars, and most other things we consume for entertainment.

Things are taken at face value. IMO and IME most people don't want to do hours of research before being able to enjoy a night at the movies, or a session of D&D.

And btw, way too often do we roleplayers think we know a lot about the relevant time-periods in history, folk lore, mythology and so on that supposedly make it into our games. In reality, we only scratch at the surface of most of that stuff, and then tell ourselves we're experts only because we can tell a glaive from a guisarme.

/M

 

[WayneLigon]

I had the main Eberron book on my shelf for several years. I was interested in the setting and thought it was really neat but for some reason the opportunity or desire never came up to run it. That's changed now, and I have six people telling me this is the best setting they've ever seen a company do and why didn't I tell them about it before. They like it vastly better than the Realms or Greyhawk, and on par with the various homebrew settings we've used over the years.

On the whole 'warforged are not robots', it's just plain obvious that they are not. Robots are not self-willed, do not possess souls (the sages in Eberron may debate this, but to me anything that can be ressurrected has a soul), are programmed, and do not self-repair.

It flows back to that whole 'you got your sci-fi in my fantasy' series of arguements. I see that distinction vanishing or being severly reduced in a lot of media, though, so it's something people will find they'll need to be getting used to.

 

[hexgrid]

Warforged are much, much closer to the Tin Woodsman than they are to... say... Data from Star Trek: The Next generation.

Data and the Tin Woodsman aren't really all that far apart. In many ways, they're the exact same thing.

Warforged are totally fantasy versions of robots, just as much as the Lightning Rail is a fantasy train.

(I say this as someone who has no problem at all with robots in D&D.)

 

[Doug McCrae]

WotC already has Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk as its vanilla fantasy settings, there's no point whatsoever in doing another.

Eberron is a work of genius because Keith Baker figured out the trick of how to expand on a kitchen sink genre. Add another.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Yeah, warforged are robots. So are golems. So what?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, warforged are robots. So are golems. So what?

In no way are golems or warforged robots. It's a cute phrase, but utterly meaningless.

Folks who equate the two should probably try expanding what they mean by "robot," since it's pretty clearly not the dictionary definition.

 

[BryonD]

I do object to people who express dislike for it based on false assumptions, such as the aforementioned "robots" and "steam punk," neither of which exist anywhere in the setting. My only requests are:

If you're going to bash the setting, bash it for what's actually there.

If you can't be bothered to read the setting because what you've seen doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. But don't then turn around and bash it as though you've got insight into it, when you do not.

Meh

I agree that "steam punk" is certainly the wrong term. But it is easy enough for someone to mistake magi-tech for steam punk if they aren't really in to either. "[magic] provides certain comforts and conveniences unknown in either the modern world or any other world of medieval fantasy." [page 7] "Magic is industry across the face of Eberron." [page 8] "Magic and the arcane arts allow for effects that in some ways mimic technological marvels..." [page 8]. And numerous other places that don't use as few words, but explicitely describe magical analogs to modern, or at least 19th - 20th century technological advances. It is right there in the book.

And as far as robots, I think it is vastly more nit-picky to try to claim that they are not than it is to say that they are. They are metal-men. Call then the Tin Man, androids, robots, whatever. They are still metal men and if you walk up to a random person on the street and describe your warforged character they are going to think "robot."

I wouldn't mind warforged (that much) if they were just simply constructs. But I loathe the entire living construct concept. It is like they picked the concept and then tore it apart by shoe-horning a Con and other concepts back in just to make the ECL +0. To steal Psion's line, it is a case of the rules using the game to force-fit an idea.

But even with that, I've never been interested in sentient metal men. There were better ideas for that concept already out well before Eberron and I never used them for even a lonely (Lt Cmdr Data / I'm the only one) character, much less a whole race.

And really, all the new races seem quite counter productive to me. I mean, they proclaim that Eberron supports more espionage and the Changeling clearly calls out to play the faceman/spy role. But crap, in a world full of facechangers the idea of spys is not enhanced. Hell, now it is mundane and everyone has a dozen at the ready. yawn......

I'm perfectly fine with shifting away from Tolkien influence. I don't mind keeping it, but I've got no attachment. But if you are going to toss aside your copy of LotR only to replace it with the lastest copy of X-Men comics, then you are moving in the wrong direction, AFAIAC. And all four new core races do exactly that.

And I don't buy that Eberron in any way is more cinematic than any other D&D game. And I don't believe that any Eberron fan out there can in full honesty claim that the day before they heard of Eberron that they had a problem with D&D because it could not do Indiana Jones. I didn't have trouble with that before and I don't have trouble with it in my non-Eberron games now.

And lastly (for now), it seems that virtually everything that makes Eberron BE Eberron is a restriction. These monsters are from over there. This race has this background. It is all scripted. And yes, I understand 100% that I am free to revise anything and everything to fit my preference. But if I'm doing that then what is the point of Eberron again?

 

[BryonD]

In no way are golems or warforged robots. It's a cute phrase, but utterly meaningless.

Folks who equate the two should probably try expanding what they mean by "robot," since it's pretty clearly not the dictionary definition.

There is a big difference between the scientific defintion of a robot and the adventure fantasy concept of a robot.

Yes, an android is closer to right and when you are ultimately comparing a list of completely fictional things they will all be unique in some minor ways.

But if you ask the average American to name the trash can robot from Star Wars, you'll get far more answers of "R2-D2" than you will "They weren't robots, go look it up."