Eberron's Worth...

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think romantic fantasy, as embodied in Blue Rose in D20, is probably a lot more dominant in today's fantasy novels than anything "dungeonpunk."

And the most critically successful stuff nowadays seems to have some sort of ties to real world history, whether it's a Song of Ice & Fire, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell or His Majesty's Dragon. The latter two are being adapted as films, whereas I can't think of anything remotely "dungeonpunk" that's breaking through into the mainstream that way.

 

[rounser]

Aren't golems by the RAW non-sentient, or is it a gray area?

I'm thinking of the NWN module Hordes of the Underdark, where there's a golem dungeon where the first level has automatons involved in puzzles, and the second level has two warring groups of rival golems that have become sentient (flesh versus clay?). In any case, I think that's a good example of how to use the idea of sentient golems (in worlds other than Eberron).

 

[gizmo33]

On the flip-side of the coin, do you feel that you have a good enough understanding of the current trends and influences in fantasy to sum it up as the "latest dungeonpunk" with great confidence?

No, I agree, and I don't think that one side of this issue is entitled to dismiss the other. I don't prefer Eberron's vision of things, but it doesn't make it bad or uncreative. I think fantasy in any direction is interesting, but I think that this idea that Tolkien is somehow now exhausted or inferior is ignorant (by definition) but I wouldn't want to compound the error by saying anything as equally ignorant about the dungeonpunk genre.

One of my fondest recollections of D&D is the old D&D Companion module Earthshaker. A giant machine man, manned by gnomes. And there were robots in the game as well way before that.

The position that I'm reacting to is "you've got to have robots/lightning trains in the game because otherwise it's just Tolkeinesque and inferior" I guess Eberron, Greyhawk, or whatever will just speak for themselves in the long run, and the creativity that's there will interest those who put the effort into finding it.

Funny, in terms of classic DnD, I don't think of Earthshaker as being and old module, but that's beside the point because the first Greyhawk supplement IIRC makes reference to androids in the dungeon. Gygax's early adventures included trips to Mars, and his influences were definitely from a time when there was plenty of crossover between fantasy and sci-fi.

 

[MarkB]

I'm thinking of the NWN module Hordes of the Underdark, where there's a golem dungeon where the first level has automatons involved in puzzles, and the second level has two warring groups of rival golems that have become sentient (flesh versus clay?). In any case, I think that's a good example of how to use the idea of sentient golems (in worlds other than Eberron).

In what respect do you feel that warforged fail to embody such concepts?

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you're going to bash the setting, bash it for what's actually there.

If you can't be bothered to read the setting because what you've seen doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. But don't then turn around and bash it as though you've got insight into it, when you do not.

Frickin' word.

My major problem with Eberron is the mechanics of the warforged as an EL 0 race. The binary immortality/vulnerability really gets under my craw because it's unnecessary and a dramatic departure from every other core race in the game.

My minor problem with Eberron is the fact that they made every race interesting except for dwarves. Elves now worship death gods. Gnomes have secret societies. Orcs are druids. Halflings are tribal warriors. Dwarves? They live in mountains and mine...just like in every other fantasy universe.

Aside from that, it's a good setting, very much in the vein of the games I like to play (I'm a fan of magi-tek and modernisms....creative anachronism is fun for me). I love much of what it's done, and I'm glad it's a part of the game.

 

[rounser]

In what respect do you feel that warforged fail to embody such concepts?

They're not automatons to begin with so their sentience isn't interesting, they're around all the time if they're in the party, and they're not special because there's thousands of them. Therefore they're not interesting in the least, IMO, and just add an unwanted colour to the tone of the game: PCs as a band of monsters, which just serves to make all the monsters look "normal", too.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They're not automatons to begin with so their sentience isn't interesting, they're around all the time if they're in the party, and they're not special because there's thousands of them. Therefore they're not interesting in the least, IMO, and just add an unwanted colour to the tone of the game: PCs as a band of monsters, which just serves to make all the monsters look "normal", too.

Every other race in the party is there all the time. Are they inherently not interesting because of that? I'm not really following what you're saying here.

 

[PallidPatience]

Define "special". Nothing available to players is "special". Nothing defined in a rulebook is "special". Unless, of course, you are using a different definition.

"Specialness" is all in how you use it, I'd say. If you portray them incorrectly, they're not, you're right. But what do you mean by "special"? Why would they have to automatons to be "special"?

 

[rounser]

Every other race in the party is there all the time. Are they inherently not interesting because of that? I'm not really following what you're saying here.

Elves, dwarves and halflings aren't usually presented as monsters, but rather the allies of the humans. The big giveaway is them being categorised as "demi-humans", as opposed to "humanoids" who are quite clearly delineated as monsters (although arguably this doesn't explain half-orcs).

Surely you can see how a PC doppelganger dilutes the novelty of NPC doppelgangers, if and when they appear.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

My minor problem with Eberron is the fact that they made every race interesting except for dwarves. Elves now worship death gods. Gnomes have secret societies. Orcs are druids. Halflings are tribal warriors. Dwarves? They live in mountains and mine...just like in every other fantasy universe.

Yeah, the changes to dwarves are pretty subtle, essentially making them a little more tribal and chaotic. IMO, they should have gone all the way, with barbarian dwarves, but that would have meant deviating from the PHB more than the other races do.