ECL/LA just not working out for me

[Thanee]

Insane!?

Let's see... Earth Mephit...

Fly 40'
+6 natural armor
Str +6 Dex -2 Con +2 In -4 Cha +4
Darkvision
Fast Healing 2 (if connected to earth)
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Change Size
Summon Mephit

Or the Air Mephit...

Fly 60' (perfect)
+3 natural armor
Dex +6 Int -4 Cha +4
Darkvision
Fast Healing 2 (useable everywhere)
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Blur
Gust of Wind
Summon Mephit

That's not too bad!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Khristos]

One aspect that was used in a game I used was removing HD from the equation entirely (and any feats gained thusly). This left only a LA to worry about. Even this isnt perfect but it allows a character to start taking character levels right away provided the game is of sufficient level to cover the LA. It isnt perfect but it is a solution. Granted the least you can do is apprentice template a person with LA totally covered by levels allowed and not use a creature that is too high powered for the level of the game.

 

[mmu1]

Insane!?

Let's see... Earth Mephit...

Fly 40'
+6 natural armor
Str +6 Dex -2 Con +2 In -4 Cha +4
Darkvision
Fast Healing 2 (if connected to earth)
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Change Size
Summon Mephit

Or the Air Mephit...

Fly 60' (perfect)
+3 natural armor
Dex +6 Int -4 Cha +4
Darkvision
Fast Healing 2 (useable everywhere)
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Blur
Gust of Wind
Summon Mephit

That's not too bad!

Bye
Thanee

Actually, for a +6 ECL that's still pretty awful. And considering that their LA is 3, and what (for example) Half-Celestials get for a LA of 4 (something like +18 to stats, +1 NA, damage resistance, elemental resistances, save bonuses, Spell Resistance, flight with Good maneuverability and spell-like abilities) their racial abilities aren't impressive at all.

The big problem with ECLs is that they're supposed to include hit dice, which is usually (aside from creatures like outsiders, who get a decent HD size, all good saves and a good BAB) the biggest rip-off in history.

Take ECL 3 lizardmen - their LA is only +1, but WotC thinks two levels of "monstrous humanoid" with a d8 hit die, (IIRC) good Reflex saves, Cleric BAB and a skill list worse than a fighter's (which completely kills your starting skills) is worth the same as two levels in a real character class? *shudder*

When making PCs, removing racial hit dice from the equation and only going by the LA is the only reasonable thing to do, unless you're talking about something like a giant that probably has 3 HD at birth and couldn't possibly make sense as a 1st level character with only one HD...

 

[dcollins]

Take ECL 3 lizardmen - their LA is only +1, but WotC thinks two levels of "monstrous humanoid" with a d8 hit die, (IIRC) good Reflex saves, Cleric BAB and a skill list worse than a fighter's (which completely kills your starting skills) is worth the same as two levels in a real character class? *shudder*

We had a debate over this specific issue in the campaign I co-DM when we introduced lizardfolk as a PC race.

Lizardfolk are clearly better at warrior-type classes, so I ran a number of simulations of lizardfolk NPC fighter versus human NPC fighter. If they're only ECL +2 (e.g., Lizardfolk Ftr8 vs. Human Ftr10) then the lizardfolk wins the fight 80% of the time. If they're ECL +3 (e.g., Lizardfolk Ftr7 vs. Human Ftr10) then the lizardfolk wins about 55% of the time.

WOTC got this one right. The natural armor bonus is a huge benefit. Anything under ECL +3 (i.e., LA +1) would make lizardfolk clearly preferential to any other racial type for a warrior build.

 

[Halivar]

I've long been a proponent of only using LA when determining character level for the purposes of advancing.

For actually putting together balanced encounters and determining XP gained from those encounters, the point could be made that a monstrous character should really be considered level = CR + class level, just as if that character were on the other side of the battle.

But that's just my $0.02.

 

[Deadguy]

dcollins, that's good to know, as Lizardfolk are going to be really important in my next campaign. Of course, PCs get a monster class (not the one from Dragon). And I created a feat to help Lizardfolk Druids catch up with their non-Lizardfolk brethren.

 

[mmu1]

We had a debate over this specific issue in the campaign I co-DM when we introduced lizardfolk as a PC race.

Lizardfolk are clearly better at warrior-type classes, so I ran a number of simulations of lizardfolk NPC fighter versus human NPC fighter. If they're only ECL +2 (e.g., Lizardfolk Ftr8 vs. Human Ftr10) then the lizardfolk wins the fight 80% of the time. If they're ECL +3 (e.g., Lizardfolk Ftr7 vs. Human Ftr10) then the lizardfolk wins about 55% of the time.

WOTC got this one right. The natural armor bonus is a huge benefit. Anything under ECL +3 (i.e., LA +1) would make lizardfolk clearly preferential to any other racial type for a warrior build.

They didn't, actually - two wrongs just happened to have made a right in this case.

Their abilities are way out of line for a +1 LA - they got that part of it wrong. The fact that they have two racial hit dice, which supposedly add 2 to the ECL is also wrong, because, as I said above, the abilities they grant are pathetic, and those two hit dice are not worth a +2 ECL on their own. Things just happen to work out ok because their LA is too low.

According to WotC, Lizardmen would have the same ECL if you kept their racial abilities and LA, and instead gave them two Hit Dice of Outsider, with a fighter BAB and all good saves - which is obviously nonsense.

 

[Album Cover X]

Well as some people already said much better than I could ECL/LA isn't an exact science but rather an artform.

We could run two campaigns using the same ECL/LA creature and one of us finds it underpowered and the other overpowered. Its all about the situations the creature finds itself/himself/herself in.

[hijack] on the subject of mephits tho... those little guys are fun to use... A couple of sessions ago I used a dust, earth and salt and almost wiped out the party... players said it was the most intertaining fight we had...[/hijack]

 

[Halivar]

According to WotC, Lizardmen would have the same ECL if you kept their racial abilities and LA, and instead gave them two Hit Dice of Outsider, with a fighter BAB and all good saves - which is obviously nonsense.

Yeah, but can you banish and/or hedge out a lizardman?

 

[Thanee]

Actually, for a +6 ECL that's still pretty awful. And considering that their LA is 3, and what (for example) Half-Celestials get for a LA of 4 (something like +18 to stats, +1 NA, damage resistance, elemental resistances, save bonuses, Spell Resistance, flight with Good maneuverability and spell-like abilities) their racial abilities aren't impressive at all.

Not saying, that it's a great deal, but it's hardly THAT bad, to be called insane.
The fast healing alone is quite good.

Maybe they are not great as a PC race, but then again, they are not meant to be a PC race in the first place.

Bye
Thanee