ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

[Moon_Goddess]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

Do you give an Ogre a favoured class? There isn't one listed in the Monster Manual.

But if you did - say, Barbarian, for example - and you told the player that he could have his Ogre Sorcerer at ECL +5 instead of +8... what happens if he then multiclasses after one Sorcerer level and starts ramping up in Barbarian? He's basically cheated the DM out of two levels... and has a couple of first level spells and a familiar to boot.

I don't think variable ECLs works...

-Hyp.

Works quite well, cuz only an idiot plays more than one game with that liar.

DND is a game, thus we are playing together as freinds. You lie to me, in an attempt to cheat in a freindly game. I don't see you coming back to the table.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.

Works quite well, cuz only an idiot plays more than one game with that liar.

DND is a game, thus we are playing together as freinds. You lie to me, in an attempt to cheat in a freindly game. I don't see you coming back to the table.

I think I like your answer more than mine

 

[Ristamar]

I agree that the above scenario is very dishonest and underhanded. Looking at the other end of the spectrum, I don't think every player wants to flesh out a character plan before the game even starts to cover the next 15+ levels just because he's playing an exotic PC race, either. That saps quite a bit of fun out of having the character grow and change within the context of the campaign.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Also true.

But I was reading the example as taking an ECL +5 ogre sorcerer and then jumping to fighter very soon.

If for the purpose of debate we can assume that an ogre F1 is balanced for a 9th level party, then it is clear that an ogre Sor2 F1 is NOT balanced for an 8th level party.

I really doubt that kind of dishonesty would occur very often (mainly because it requires even more stupidity to think you could get away with it).

Anyway, the line of reasoning does support the arguement of erring on the side of high ECLs. (at least a little)

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

True result : Its closer than you think and if you go with the original +5 ECL its almost dead even.

Marshall, I'm not guessing here. I'm actually using an ogre at ECL 8 in my campaign.

More playtesting will help me fine tune my analysis but I already know that ghorgor would be much too strong at ECL 5. He'd outclass all the other fighter type. This much has been proved beyond doubt during the playtesting I've done so far.

What further playtesting might reveal is if ECL should be modified by a +1/-1 factor. Lowering it by 3 is out of the question as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

DND is a game, thus we are playing together as friends. You lie to me, in an attempt to cheat in a freindly game. I don't see you coming back to the table.

Exactly

More to the point, if I made a deal with a player to reduce his ECL as long he was willing to play a suboptimal class, I wouldn't let him go back on that agreement.

I don't let players walk all over me, despite what my avatar might lead you to think.

 

[Darkness]

The ogre moves at 30 when wearing medium or heavier armor.

Yeah, I've noticed this in the entries of a few creatures - ogres and other giants, most or all of them. Anyone got an idea why this is so (e.g., size)?

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Yeah, I've noticed this in the entries of a few creatures - ogres and other giants, most or all of them. Anyone got an idea why this is so (e.g., size)?

Oviously they move faster because they're taller.

But it's hardly consistent.

Consider this; an Hide armor slows you down.

Stone giants and Hill giants move at 40 with an Hide armor. Frost giants moves at 40 with a chain shirt! Fire giants explicitly have a base speed of 40 but are slowed down to 30 by their chain mail.

*shrug*

 

[Darkness]

Huh. Quite weird; asking the Sage about this might not be the worst idea...

 

[MythandLore]

True result : Its closer than you think and if you go with the original +5 ECL its almost dead even.

You are correct, even though you did not take into account a few things, like the fact he can't use a horse, would have a hard time fitting into small places, sticks out in a city, race is considered evil by most races, he's stupider then stupid, races like dwarves have bonuses to fight him, etc, etc.
If you use most point by systems (start 8 in a stat) he has 4 int.
That's somethin' bad.
Sure he's a tank that can do a lot of damage, but I think most of us have seen the smackdowns made with charging mounts, rogues etc.
His starting HD are smaller then a fighter's too.
If you made him +8 ECL he really really loses out.
Give the normal race a +3 extra level advantage, the ogre loses out big.
Botton line:
+5 is good, could push to +6 if they had to, +8 is way off.

If this is almost dead even, then I suppose the Tarrasque should not be too wrong at ECL+20

You argument is off.
Ogre, CR2 , ECL+5 (DMG)
If you were to compare the two it would be:
Tarrasque CR20, ECL +50.
(and +50 ECL sounds a lot closer to right, over the +80 in the Dragon Mag.)

Yes. They're very powerful and use spell-like abilities. They're also blue-skinned.

They also regen, which to me is one of their coolest abilities.