MythandLore
First Post
GREAT!Wolfspider said:I'll get right on that, sir!
I'll be counting the minutes.
And while your at it, why don't you do something simple like...
Bring Peace to all Mankind.
-
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ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
- Thread starter Mal Malenkirk
- Start date
I'll be counting the minutes.
And while your at it, why don't you do something simple like...
Bring Peace to all Mankind.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
MythandLore said:
Please, don't force me to design Lizardflok and Troll fighters to playtest!
I'm in the process of proving (to my own satisfaction, at least) that the ogre really are ECL 8.
I would therefore be inclined to give the guys designing Tooth&Claw the benefit of the doubt on all the ECLs they've designed until I tried them. After all, they have playtested their ECLs while we only have conjectures based on stats (except for Ghorgor
). I'm not saying they won't make any mistake. They can't playest all of the monsters as extensively as a player will playtest a single monster in the course of a whole campaign. As it has been pointed out in the previous discussions, it's much easier to reduce the ECL during play than it is to increase it.
Thanks for taking the time to post this.
One of the downsides of the monster races isn't that they're less useful socially than a normal character, but that they're less useful period outside of combat. That is, "outide of combat" is not restricted to social interactions. Of course, your typical core race fighter won't be terribly useful either, given the class' lack of skill points and poor skill list. But having some skills is still better than none. I just think an actual player would become bored with a character that is not capable of anything other than melee and feats of strength.
You say Ghorgor (reminds me of an old GWAR song) felt pretty balanced to you. Do you think he would have still worked out OK if he was a 2nd level fighter instead of 3rd? He would have lost a feat, some hit points, and had a -1 to his BAB. Do you think that would have made a noticeable difference?
What if he was a 1st level fighter instead?
Mal Malenkirk said:
One of the downsides of the monster races isn't that they're less useful socially than a normal character, but that they're less useful period outside of combat. That is, "outide of combat" is not restricted to social interactions. Of course, your typical core race fighter won't be terribly useful either, given the class' lack of skill points and poor skill list. But having some skills is still better than none. I just think an actual player would become bored with a character that is not capable of anything other than melee and feats of strength.
You say Ghorgor (reminds me of an old GWAR song) felt pretty balanced to you. Do you think he would have still worked out OK if he was a 2nd level fighter instead of 3rd? He would have lost a feat, some hit points, and had a -1 to his BAB. Do you think that would have made a noticeable difference?
What if he was a 1st level fighter instead?
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
First of all, Ghorgor doesn't only fight. He paints, too.
Secondly, if a player wants to be useful out of combat instead of just roleplaying along, he shouldn't play a fighter at all, no matter the race.
You should choose the monster you want to play as you choose your class. You want a skilled class? Play a rogue. You want a skilled monster? Play a fey, for example. They get their intelligence score (not modifier) multiplied X 3 in skill points.
Let's say you play a Dryad (freed from her tree); +4 to int, you could put a 16 and obtain a 20. That gives you 62 skill points (+2 for an extra HD) and very sweet monster "class" skill. Not to mention spell like abilities like charm persons and talk to plants. useful enough out of combat for you?
Personnaly, I don't mind low skill PCs. For example, Mal Malenkirk, my namesake, is a PC fighter that is tottaly inept at anything that doesn't involve fighting or fleeing. That doesn't stop him from conceiving harebrained money making scheme and making an arse out of himself at any court he attends. He is even more fun to play out of combat than into one.
If I wanted Mal to be good at anything else, I'd have chosen another class. Same goes for deciding to play Ghorgor.
I think that it would. I feel this would leave him with too little HP. This is already his main weakness when compared to the human 11th level fighter. This would also lowers will and reflex saves by one points and he's also trailing a little behind in that department.
For the moment ECL 8 feels good.
Spatula said:
First of all, Ghorgor doesn't only fight. He paints, too.
Secondly, if a player wants to be useful out of combat instead of just roleplaying along, he shouldn't play a fighter at all, no matter the race.
You should choose the monster you want to play as you choose your class. You want a skilled class? Play a rogue. You want a skilled monster? Play a fey, for example. They get their intelligence score (not modifier) multiplied X 3 in skill points.
Let's say you play a Dryad (freed from her tree); +4 to int, you could put a 16 and obtain a 20. That gives you 62 skill points (+2 for an extra HD) and very sweet monster "class" skill. Not to mention spell like abilities like charm persons and talk to plants. useful enough out of combat for you?
Personnaly, I don't mind low skill PCs. For example, Mal Malenkirk, my namesake, is a PC fighter that is tottaly inept at anything that doesn't involve fighting or fleeing. That doesn't stop him from conceiving harebrained money making scheme and making an arse out of himself at any court he attends. He is even more fun to play out of combat than into one.
If I wanted Mal to be good at anything else, I'd have chosen another class. Same goes for deciding to play Ghorgor.
Spatula said:
I think that it would. I feel this would leave him with too little HP. This is already his main weakness when compared to the human 11th level fighter. This would also lowers will and reflex saves by one points and he's also trailing a little behind in that department.
For the moment ECL 8 feels good.
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Re: Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
Sorry for all the questions...
How many HP does the 11th level fighter have? Your 3rd level ogre had 80-something as I recall. Losing a level of fighter would put him at 70-something I'd think.
Yes, fighters typically aren't good at much out outside of combat (although the fighter in my group is actually the most capable, but then he has an 18 INT and is human). This isn't true of the other PC classes, which all have better class skills and most of which get more skill points. Do you think the +8 ECL would still be balanced if Ghorgor were not a fighter? This is something that I wonder if Tooth & Claw will get into... That is, if the ECLs are balanced for all class selections, or if they should raised or lowered if the monster's class does not build on the monster's inborn abilities.
Sorry for all the questions...
How many HP does the 11th level fighter have? Your 3rd level ogre had 80-something as I recall. Losing a level of fighter would put him at 70-something I'd think.
Yes, fighters typically aren't good at much out outside of combat (although the fighter in my group is actually the most capable, but then he has an 18 INT and is human). This isn't true of the other PC classes, which all have better class skills and most of which get more skill points. Do you think the +8 ECL would still be balanced if Ghorgor were not a fighter? This is something that I wonder if Tooth & Claw will get into... That is, if the ECLs are balanced for all class selections, or if they should raised or lowered if the monster's class does not build on the monster's inborn abilities.
Marion Poliquin
First Post
Mal Malenkirk said:
Hey, you forgot to give him a toe ring of regenaration.
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
Damn it, I've been exposed!
Yes, that's where the name comes from, altough my Ghorgor is much more shy and sensitive. And he's a full ogre.
Marion Poliquin said:
Hey, you forgot to give him a toe ring of regenaration.
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Ghor-gor-BEY !
Damn it, I've been exposed!
Yes, that's where the name comes from, altough my Ghorgor is much more shy and sensitive. And he's a full ogre.
Marion Poliquin
First Post
Re: Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
I just meant it as a nudgenudgewinkwink. I steal names from bédés and novels all the time. I am quite bad at making names up.
Mal Malenkirk said:
Damn it, I've been exposed!
Yes, that's where the name comes from, altough my Ghorgor is much more shy and sensitive. And he's a full ogre.
I just meant it as a nudgenudgewinkwink. I steal names from bédés and novels all the time. I am quite bad at making names up.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
The 11th level human fighter has 114 HP. As you can see, he's got the edge over Ghorgor in that department. And it could worse because he isn't a typical tank.
Ghorgor the fighter is balanced with my party, IMO. Ghorgor the wizard would be a joke. A 3rd level wizard with a -4 racial penalty to intelligence adventuring in an 11th level party? The result would be obvious.
ECL is clearly balanced with the best possible match up in mind. Ogre can only be viable fighter and barbarian. I guess you could lower his ECL if the player wanted to select another class than the best fit.
But do you give an edge to an Half-orc sorcerer to compensate for the fact that he clearly isn't as good as a human one?
Spatula said:
The 11th level human fighter has 114 HP. As you can see, he's got the edge over Ghorgor in that department. And it could worse because he isn't a typical tank.
Spatula said:
Ghorgor the fighter is balanced with my party, IMO. Ghorgor the wizard would be a joke. A 3rd level wizard with a -4 racial penalty to intelligence adventuring in an 11th level party? The result would be obvious.
ECL is clearly balanced with the best possible match up in mind. Ogre can only be viable fighter and barbarian. I guess you could lower his ECL if the player wanted to select another class than the best fit.
But do you give an edge to an Half-orc sorcerer to compensate for the fact that he clearly isn't as good as a human one?
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abri
Mad Scientist
Ok, the small problem I have with it is that among the people I know, people WON'T take the class you normally associate with the race, and these ECL were determined with only the most efficient class in mind.
And sorry, playing a killing machine is not my idea of fun, I expect characters to be usefull outside of combat. IMC, social interaction, investigation and streetsmarts are essentials, for every character: they will be separated and each will try to bring something to the investigation. An ogre PC will be expected to do something out of combat, so he'll have to put a good score in INT to compensate.
IMC one of the cohort is a ranger 3 ogre (with ECL+4) and he was never more powerful than the fighters in the groups. He did his job well of protecting his wood elf rogue master (L9), and completed him nicely but the rogue was much more dangerous.
The ECL +4 already didn't seemed right as he wasn't maxed out.
That's an important point: people who want's to play these monsters are not min/maxer (who are NEVER going to take a race with ECL), so these characters needs a break.
Because sorcerer or druid ogre, fighter succubus, mage troll, paladin pixies... are what my players would be more interested, and with these ECL they are not going to survive.
OK, one of my player in another campaign needs a new L9 character I'll give him a tooled-up killer ogre at ECL+4 and let's see how he does (Ps: the clerics and fighters in the groups are maxed out for combat).
Results in 3 days (scenario with 50% investigation/50% combat from hell)
And sorry, playing a killing machine is not my idea of fun, I expect characters to be usefull outside of combat. IMC, social interaction, investigation and streetsmarts are essentials, for every character: they will be separated and each will try to bring something to the investigation. An ogre PC will be expected to do something out of combat, so he'll have to put a good score in INT to compensate.
IMC one of the cohort is a ranger 3 ogre (with ECL+4) and he was never more powerful than the fighters in the groups. He did his job well of protecting his wood elf rogue master (L9), and completed him nicely but the rogue was much more dangerous.
The ECL +4 already didn't seemed right as he wasn't maxed out.
That's an important point: people who want's to play these monsters are not min/maxer (who are NEVER going to take a race with ECL), so these characters needs a break.
Because sorcerer or druid ogre, fighter succubus, mage troll, paladin pixies... are what my players would be more interested, and with these ECL they are not going to survive
.OK, one of my player in another campaign needs a new L9 character I'll give him a tooled-up killer ogre at ECL+4 and let's see how he does (Ps: the clerics and fighters in the groups are maxed out for combat).
Results in 3 days (scenario with 50% investigation/50% combat from hell)
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