ECLs and DMG...difference?

[Geron Raveneye]

I´ve read the Dungeon article on ECLs in #293. I´ve read a few websites trying to deal with ECLs. And I tried to figure out where the mechanistic differences between ECLs and the Effective Levels from the DMG for monster characters are? As far as I can see, those two mechanisms to equalize monster abilities with character levels work the same as far as advancement and character level are concerned.

Can anybody tell me why they gave a lot of the monsters and templates that appear in the DMG for comparison at least +2 virtual levels?
Example: Minotaurs have an Effective Character Level of +8 in the DMG...and a +10 in Dungeon #293. Half-Celestials have a +3 in DMG, a +5 in Dungepn #293. Where´s the difference? They say in this article those values might appear in future products...does that mean they will supercede the DMG?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Good question. Unfortunately, I can`t answer it to you. Perhaps they proved by playtesting that an higher ECL would be more appropriate, or someone did not understand the whole system of ECL/CRs and Hit Dies...
The new information will only supersede old information if they are placed in an errata, or if they are placed in a new D&D Rulebook which specifically states that the new information supersedes the old. And even then you or the DM (in case you and the DM are different persons) can still rule otherwise.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Henrix]

ECL is the improved, and more detailed, version of the effective levels in the DMG, first implemented in the Forgotten Realms CS.
So they are essentially the same, but more thought and playtesting has gone into the ECL system. The ECL system is meant to supercede the sectionin the DMG.

And that is also the reason that recent effective levels/ECLs are (at least generally) higher than in earlier sources.
Even some of the ECLs in the FRCS have been errataed to higher levels.

It seems that Wizards is developing a book, Tooth & Claw, that will cover playing monsters more in detail. Out perhaps at the end of the year.
The article in Dragon is probably a by-product, and a way to get more playtesting, of this project.

 

[Jeremy]

But as to why your minotaur or troll pc now takes an additional 2-3 level XP hit or why your drow wizard is now even further behind with his caster level... I don't know. Maybe cause WotC wants you to stick to humans?

Sure seems like it. <grumbles about having to change his ogre's ECL AGAIN>

 

[jasper]

But as to why your minotaur or troll pc now takes an additional 2-3 level XP hit or why your drow wizard is now even further behind with his caster level....>

Easy because their ablities are above the normal PC races and will affect game play.

Ex. I was reincarnated as troll in one campaign. With a 5% chance daily of converting to CE. I would throw my self into combat and fake death when I hit 5 hps. Unless fire or acid damage, I need no heal spell so the party cleric was save from buring 50 hps worth of cure spells.

I read the article and thought was pretty balanced.

 

[Jeremy]

When you were reincarnated did you take away 11 character levels? It's not really a good example because you didn't start as a troll. Sure it's unbalancing when you just BECOME a troll out of the blue. But 11 is too much. DMG's recommended 8 works fine.

I've played in a campaign with a minotaur, a campaign with a troll, and a one shot with both of those characters in it at the same time along side other human warriors and they were fine as listed.

The BAB penalty, the HD penalty, the skill and feat penalties, the lack of gear penalty (costs so much to buy armor and weapons for size:Large creatures with all the costs doubled, doubled again if the creature has a tail or some other concern that would make standard armor not work), and having to remain outside of towns all added up to balance them nicely against the other PC's both when I was a player and a DM at the DMG recommended levels.

My PC came up to me and told me that Dragon said he was now 3 ECL higher and he had to take off 3 hard earned fighter levels. I told him to disregard the magazine. DMG recommended numbers for ECL work fine.

 

[CRGreathouse]

the lack of gear penalty (costs so much to buy armor and weapons for size:Large creatures with all the costs doubled, doubled again if the creature has a tail or some other concern that would make standard armor not work)

This ceases to be a problem by about 4th level, since the enhancement and masterwork costs are unaffected:

chain shirt: 100 gp
chain shirt barding: 400 gp

+2 chain shirt: 4,250 gp
+2 chain shirt barding: 4,550 gp

full plate: 1500 gp
full plate barding: 6000 gp

+5 full plate: 26,650 gp
+5 full plate barding: 31,150 gp

 

[Jeremy]

Ah.

We've been doubling the whole price, not just the base price. Seemed a good idea at the time.

 

[Game Control]

I've playtested extensively an ogre at ECL 8 and it worked fine.

+10 to strenght does wonder to close the gap created by lost BAB. Reach and size advantage are also impressive. His main problem was relatively low HP but each level he gained reduced the gap between him and the other PCs because of higher constitution.

The Troll's advantages are even more impressive and he has more HDs so I'm pretty sure ECL 11 is a minimum.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I've playtested extensively an ogre at ECL 8 and it worked fine.

+10 to strenght does wonder to close the gap created by lost BAB. Reach and size advantage are also impressive. His main problem was relatively low HP but each level he gained reduced the gap between him and the other PCs because of higher constitution.

The Troll's advantages are even more impressive and he has more HDs so I'm pretty sure ECL 11 is a minimum.

Yeah, a troll's ECL should be at least 11. I'm actually surprised it's not a few points higher, but I'll take their word for it.