IMHO, it's fairly obvious that WOTC wants to discourage playing non-standard characters. While I don't really have a problem with this, there is already a mechanism to handle that -- the DM simply says "no" to such characters. The more I play and DM 3e, the more I'm convinced that the ECL system is NOT balanced ...
ECLs and DMG...difference?
- Thread starter Geron Raveneye
- Start date
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
The problem I have...
...is that I haven´t found a comprehensive system how to calculate those ECLs, either from the DMG or from Dragon #293. There´s Soldarin´s ECL Calculator, but that one gives differing results to the Dragon ECLs... *shrugs*...but apparently it works for the ECLs in the DMG
Great..at least I have something to work with now... 
...is that I haven´t found a comprehensive system how to calculate those ECLs, either from the DMG or from Dragon #293. There´s Soldarin´s ECL Calculator, but that one gives differing results to the Dragon ECLs... *shrugs*...but apparently it works for the ECLs in the DMG
Great..at least I have something to work with now...
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jollyninja
First Post
ok, i for one like the high ECL's. i have played with many non human companions and quite frankly, the troll gives a dm fits. within 2 minutes of a fight he is fully healed (nullifying the effects of a drawn out campaign), he is harder to kill then a standard lev 11 character. no character can come close to his damage inflicted in a single shot (melee combat only, I know a wizard/ cleric can). he gets 3 attacks in a single round, if he takes multiattack, they are alot higher then any lev 11 character's 3 attacks. he probably will not have as many hp as your other characters but his AC will be insane, his natural + his armor + his dex (not nessisarily a bad stat for a pc troll) -1 for size. combine this with the fact that he can use a huge weapon in two hands (hypothetically, a 2d8 greatsword + 1.5 X str bonus = unbalanced damage compared to a standard lev 11 character) and you have a character that would infuriate any DM. the only thing that a troll lacks compared to most lev 11 characters is skill points but who cares, if you're playing a troll you don't care about stupid things like skills and roleplaying, you just want to kill and eat things (reincarnation not included).
I know that fire nullifies some of this but not every encounter should involve fire in any decent campaign. if it does, your DM is trying to tell you to play something else because he is sick of you ruining all of his adventures because you are a combat juggernaut who outshines everyone else in every single fight. I've had to deal with this as a player, i was playing a dwarven fighter who basically couldn't keep up with the monsters in the group as far as damage goes even with his 16 str and +3 great axe. the nymph was the largest transgressor with her death attack and blindness attack.
some monsters will not greatly effect a campaign's balance. Troll and ogre are not in that group, they outshine all characters in some areas (combat damage) and greatly fall short in others (skills). the list is not perfect but it's close.
*edit* also the troll has reach with that weapon, forgot to mention that, after he gets a few levels, that could be horribly unbalancing.
I know that fire nullifies some of this but not every encounter should involve fire in any decent campaign. if it does, your DM is trying to tell you to play something else because he is sick of you ruining all of his adventures because you are a combat juggernaut who outshines everyone else in every single fight. I've had to deal with this as a player, i was playing a dwarven fighter who basically couldn't keep up with the monsters in the group as far as damage goes even with his 16 str and +3 great axe. the nymph was the largest transgressor with her death attack and blindness attack.
some monsters will not greatly effect a campaign's balance. Troll and ogre are not in that group, they outshine all characters in some areas (combat damage) and greatly fall short in others (skills). the list is not perfect but it's close.
*edit* also the troll has reach with that weapon, forgot to mention that, after he gets a few levels, that could be horribly unbalancing.
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Soldarin´s ECL Calculator grossly undervalues attribute bonuses and increased reach and speed. You can create super races with ECLs of 0 or 1. It works only for the small subset of monsters that its output was designed to mimic.
Regeneration is probably the most powerful ability after incorporeal.
Regeneration is probably the most powerful ability after incorporeal.
Soldarin
First Post
Archer said:
Felt the need to respond.
Reach costs you a FULL level. How much more would you make someone pay for it?
As to why ability mods cost so little (relatively speaking), look at the DMG Ogre. All those ability mods, and still only 1 above its HD, can't be worth much more then, now can they.
And finally: the system is NOT meant to create races. If it had been I would have used a continuous scale.
Thanks, that'll be all.
Kwalish Kid
Explorer
Answering the question:
OK, here's the difference between the DMG set-up and the ECLs:
First, you have to understand that hit dice stack. If I am a troll with one level of fighter, I have all my troll hit dice (and abilities) plus the one level of fighter hit dice (and abilities).
In the DMG system, I am a 7th level character. I have at least 21,000 XP. If I'm being introduced to a party, that party should be an average of 9th level (my class level + 8, as per the DMG). Hit dice = character level, and the DMG factor is a mechanism for introducing new PCs.
Under the new rules, the troll counts as a much higher level character (I think that it's +12). So my 1st level troll fighter still has the same hit dice and abilities, but he is 13th level (or whatever), effectively , and needs enough XP to reach 14th level to advance to FTR 2. I belive that the PC may start with as little as 0 XP, which means a 91,000 XP gap until 2nd level FTR, but I'm not sure. Hit dice does not equal level, and the mechanic in place balances (in theory) the PC for all their career.
Now, if you want to change the ECLs, go ahead and do it. I don't recommend you work out a system for it, I think you should just just look at the player and decide then.
OK, here's the difference between the DMG set-up and the ECLs:
First, you have to understand that hit dice stack. If I am a troll with one level of fighter, I have all my troll hit dice (and abilities) plus the one level of fighter hit dice (and abilities).
In the DMG system, I am a 7th level character. I have at least 21,000 XP. If I'm being introduced to a party, that party should be an average of 9th level (my class level + 8, as per the DMG). Hit dice = character level, and the DMG factor is a mechanism for introducing new PCs.
Under the new rules, the troll counts as a much higher level character (I think that it's +12). So my 1st level troll fighter still has the same hit dice and abilities, but he is 13th level (or whatever), effectively , and needs enough XP to reach 14th level to advance to FTR 2. I belive that the PC may start with as little as 0 XP, which means a 91,000 XP gap until 2nd level FTR, but I'm not sure. Hit dice does not equal level, and the mechanic in place balances (in theory) the PC for all their career.
Now, if you want to change the ECLs, go ahead and do it. I don't recommend you work out a system for it, I think you should just just look at the player and decide then.
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
You know...
...the whole discussion has made me wonder about something...
How "average" is the average monster?
As far as I can judge it, the monsters in MM were cerated to pose a challenge for adventurers that measure up to it´s challenge rating.
But if you look at it from the monster´s point of view, there might as well be "0. level" trolls, ogres or minotaurs, those that haven´t reached the state their MM representatives show...equivalents to a young human who just starts out on his adventuring career.
Keeping this in mind, there might be a way to design "player races" from the MM, and not just from the standard o-HD races, and in a way that doesn´t unbalance the game too much.
But honestly, I think some MM monsters just aren´t meant to be played in the most games...personal opinion here, though
...the whole discussion has made me wonder about something...
How "average" is the average monster?
As far as I can judge it, the monsters in MM were cerated to pose a challenge for adventurers that measure up to it´s challenge rating.
But if you look at it from the monster´s point of view, there might as well be "0. level" trolls, ogres or minotaurs, those that haven´t reached the state their MM representatives show...equivalents to a young human who just starts out on his adventuring career.
Keeping this in mind, there might be a way to design "player races" from the MM, and not just from the standard o-HD races, and in a way that doesn´t unbalance the game too much.
But honestly, I think some MM monsters just aren´t meant to be played in the most games...personal opinion here, though
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