D&D 4E Edition Experience - Did/Do You Play 4th Edition D&D? How Was/Is it?

[BrokenTwin]

I remember being really excited for their digital tools (~it's the future, man!~), but one major issue I did end up having was that the character builder became almost required, if for no other reason than because errata was so constant compared to other editions, having access to the online builder was the only way to really ensure that all of your players were using the same rules. Still a bit salty about them forcing the character builder into an online-only model after enjoying the VERY useful offline version, but I understand why they did it. I remember that 3d virtual tabletop video distinctly, but even then I was worried about their ability to actually deliver.

I sold all of my 4E books a long time ago, but I'm kinda feeling like grabbing the Essentials books and giving it another go. I've heard that 13th Age is kind of a spiritual successor to 4E, but I've never played it myself (despite owning the very nice Eyes of the Stone Thief).

 

[teitan]

I remember being really excited for their digital tools (~it's the future, man!~), but one major issue I did end up having was that the character builder became almost required, if for no other reason than because errata was so constant compared to other editions, having access to the online builder was the only way to really ensure that all of your players were using the same rules. Still a bit salty about them forcing the character builder into an online-only model after enjoying the VERY useful offline version, but I understand why they did it. I remember that 3d virtual tabletop video distinctly, but even then I was worried about their ability to actually deliver.

I sold all of my 4E books a long time ago, but I'm kinda feeling like grabbing the Essentials books and giving it another go. I've heard that 13th Age is kind of a spiritual successor to 4E, but I've never played it myself (despite owning the very nice Eyes of the Stone Thief).

some of those Essentials books now sale for as much as 3.5 core books!

 

[BrokenTwin]

some of those Essentials books now sale for as much as 3.5 core books!

I'm not surprised, but that still pains me to hear.
Edit: Well, pains my wallet, at least.

 

[Eric V]

I sold all of my 4E books a long time ago, but I'm kinda feeling like grabbing the Essentials books and giving it another go. I've heard that 13th Age is kind of a spiritual successor to 4E, but I've never played it myself (despite owning the very nice Eyes of the Stone Thief).

Eyes of the Stone Thief is fantastic...I can't imagine not wanting to play 13th Age after pouring over it.

!3th Age isn't as "grid-tactical" a game (no slides, pushes, etc.) but still has plenty of "player tactics" alongside some great out-of-combat mechanics. Not a good game for GMs who like absolute control over the narrative, however.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's your personal opinion, not what "people" collectively thought.

I remember QUITE well the edition wars. From the moment 4e was announced at Gen Con 2007, people were skeptical because they liked 3e and didn't see a need for a new edition. Yes, some people wanted something new or different, but those people also had other variants like retroclones they could go to.

As compared to when 3e was announced at Gen Con 1999. . .people were excited because everyone KNEW AD&D 2e was long obsolete.

To be fair, this is also your personal opinion, isn't it, as opposed to what "people" collectively thought?

I mean, with the 1E-2E transition, I heard a lot of the same things as with the 3E-4E transition. "It isn't necessary!" "It's pandering to kids today" "They're trying to make me rebuy all my stuff!" and so on. So it wasn't unprecedented. But in 1989 there was no OGL allowing the use of all 1E's rules and no massively powerful 3PP publisher to potentially publish a continuation of 1E and get their books into shops. Indeed TSR were aggressive in litigating against 3PPs in the TSR era.

I do agree that 3E was generally a bit different, because so much had changed in RPGs in the 1990s that a much larger proportion of players saw a change as necessary. To be honest, if 2E had come out in, say, 1990 or 1991 rather than 1989, I think it would likely have been a vastly different design, and would probably have done a number of things 3E and later editions did (skill points and getting rid of roll-under for example).

 

[BrokenTwin]

Eyes of the Stone Thief is fantastic...I can't imagine not wanting to play 13th Age after pouring over it.

!3th Age isn't as "grid-tactical" a game (no slides, pushes, etc.) but still has plenty of "player tactics" alongside some great out-of-combat mechanics. Not a good game for GMs who like absolute control over the narrative, however.

I'm quite okay with losing some control over the narrative, but I've had a bull of a time getting my players to accept any narrative control themselves.

Good to hear that 13th Age keeps a focus on player tactics though. I prefer theatre of the mind anyway, so losing the grid-specific stuff isn't a large loss for me. Does it have the same hit point bloat and combat length issues that early 4E did?

 

[Lem23]

Good to hear that 13th Age keeps a focus on player tactics though. I prefer theatre of the mind anyway, so losing the grid-specific stuff isn't a large loss for me. Does it have the same hit point bloat and combat length issues that early 4E did?

It does to some extent, and combat can still take a long time to get through, but the escalation die helps with that. There's definitely none of the 4e "all classes are equal" thing going on though; the barbarian, for example, is going to be doing a bit more damage at higher levels than lower levels, whereas some of the other classes are going to be doing many multiples of the damage they did at lower levels. There is quite a bit o HP bloat too. I'd play 13th Age again over 4e every single time, as it's a much simpler engine, but I prefer 5e to both now, and lighter systems (Dungeon World, Year Zero) to all three.

 

[teitan]

I'm not surprised, but that still pains me to hear.
Edit: Well, pains my wallet, at least.

back when I got my set on the secondary market, unpunched tokens and all, I paid 20 bucks! The DM Kit and Monster Vault are about $50 each. The Rules Compendium is about $30! The players books are maybe $10 each though. Usually the original core and most of the supplements are fairly cheap on Amazon though. Post Essentials and MM3 not so much.

 

[Eric V]

I'm quite okay with losing some control over the narrative, but I've had a bull of a time getting my players to accept any narrative control themselves.

Good to hear that 13th Age keeps a focus on player tactics though. I prefer theatre of the mind anyway, so losing the grid-specific stuff isn't a large loss for me. Does it have the same hit point bloat and combat length issues that early 4E did?

1) I did too at first, but they are coming around, and getting better at it all the time. I didn't realize what a burden it was to be in charge of every little thing; letting the players take ownership of some stuff has been liberating as well as world-building. Their contributions end up getting added to future adventures.

2) We haven't noticed bloat, but we're still low level. From more dedicated 13th Age boards, peoples' experiences seem to be that combat rarely goes past 4-5 rounds.

We had a somewhat long-ish fight last session against a green dragon that was teaching a drow spider-sorceress how to control a green basilisk. There were some conditions being thrown about (but not too many), some lock-down by the paladin and swordmage, some extra actions thrown out by the commander (13thAge version of the warlord), but all just enough...not overbearing. Quite manageable.

And just like 4e, while the play made things seem dire for the characters, on my side of the screen, I knew they weren't actually in too too much danger of a tpk (and the game has rules for fleeing, anyway). Best of both worlds.

 

[atanakar]

I said in the 3e thread: «wait until we get to 4e.»

179 posts in less than 24 hours. 4e Paragons are alive and kicking! Good for them. ;-)