Like the argument between folks complaining about THAC0 being too complicated, and other folks explaining how they're wrong, this thread is eternal.I could have sworn these threads were new last year, but they're from back in 2020 which is also when I first posted. Maybe I have early onset dementia...
The problem isn't THAC0 in and of itself. The problem is the whole system with THAC0 and descending AC, and how it gives weird effects like a ring of protection +2 lowering your AC by 2, and having a Dexterity defensive modifier of -2 also lowering your AC by 2. You can certainly learn how it works and it's not that complicated, but it's an unnecessary complication.I find it humorous all those fan bois who praise rising BAB in 3e but find THAC0 difficult or hard.
+ Items may be a complication but for whatever reason it was never an issue in our minds. We knew lower AC was better, and this magic ring gave you a +2 benefit, so it lowered your AC by 2. Weird, I'm sure, but it made perfect sense. However, iirc even TSR thought they should change AC to ascending with 2e DND, but they didn't want to upset their core audience, who they believed wanted it to stay descending, and they were sure that DND wasn't going to get any bigger than it already was... So yeah!The problem isn't THAC0 in and of itself. The problem is the whole system with THAC0 and descending AC, and how it gives weird effects like a ring of protection +2 lowering your AC by 2, and having a Dexterity defensive modifier of -2 also lowering your AC by 2. You can certainly learn how it works and it's not that complicated, but it's an unnecessary complication.
The problem isn't THAC0 in and of itself. The problem is the whole system with THAC0 and descending AC, and how it gives weird effects like a ring of protection +2 lowering your AC by 2, and having a Dexterity defensive modifier of -2 also lowering your AC by 2. You can certainly learn how it works and it's not that complicated, but it's an unnecessary complication.
Like the argument between folks complaining about THAC0 being too complicated, and other folks explaining how they're wrong, this thread is eternal.
Agreed, if I wanted to run something like OSE today I would probably use ascending AC since everyone in my group has only played games using it and it would feel more natural to them. But at the same time, if I was determined to use descending AC it wouldn't be some impossible task for them to pick it up that some people seem to like making it out to be. It had some weird quirks as has been mentioned (+ and - bonuses), but they were things you got used to pretty quickly once you were playing and didn't give much thought once you had learned the game. Having played it for 7 or 8 years I don't remember it even coming up that often when someone new joined our group. There were far more questions about why you couldn't get an AC bonus from a ring of protection under the circumstances where the rules say you don't get the bonus.Just like BAB and ascending ACs were easier to use. That's not saying that THAC0 and descending ACs were impenetrable - just that the system behind using BAB and an ascending AC were easier to teach, learn, and use.
I think this is true for any TTRPG that can be characterized as "combat algebra." In my PF1 group, there's always one (sometimes two) players who ask me to do the math for them, despite having played for years.THAC0 was a bit of a simplification from the tables with their repeating 20s.
Most players clearly got the hang of descending AC and the needed calculations, but there was always a sub-set who had trouble with it. There was almost always one or two at the table who had issues with the calculations, IME.
This is the point that always gets lost in THAC0 arguments. They often come down to trying to measure just how difficult/easy or complex it was to actually deal with in play, which is a deeply subjective sliding scale that people are, very understandably, not going to agree on. It's not even a worthwhile argument to have, honestly.The problem isn't THAC0 in and of itself. The problem is the whole system with THAC0 and descending AC, and how it gives weird effects like a ring of protection +2 lowering your AC by 2, and having a Dexterity defensive modifier of -2 also lowering your AC by 2. You can certainly learn how it works and it's not that complicated, but it's an unnecessary complication.