Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[thecasualoblivion]

I am happy to embrace the game I prefer. I lament the various impediments that combine to prevent the audience for that game from growing, knowing that for the most part getting a new gamer for my (older) game means persuading one to leave some other version.

I can sympathize with you, and if statements like this were what people said we wouldn't have the trouble we have. It isn't a great situation, and I'm sorry that events have conspired to make playing the game you prefer harder. I also appreciate that you cared enough to not put your lamentations on the rest of us, which is a refreshing change of pace.

 

[rounser]

And what about "uncomfortable observations?" This seems to imply a weird notion that those who would disagree are practicing self-deceit. I think such an idea is more indicative of someone with such bias that they themselves are the ones practicing in self delusion. Or maybe I'm interpreting this statement different than it was intended.

We all succumb to halo effects, self-deception in order to maintain personal investments and our egos, and all manner of delusion that is part of the human condition. Insisting that "you're more deluded than we are" is a cute attempt to counterattack, straight from the book of debating dirty tricks marked "ad hominem attacks", but amounts to just another shot in the edition wars.

You misunderstand my meaning, I think. To be clear, I did not mean to imply people who like the game are any more deluded than I am. But saying 4E is deficient in some way will lead to all manner of defense from you guys, though, so it's hard to argue that you're comfortable with such subjective points being raised (thus the description "uncomfortable").

 

[Barastrondo]

Well, Aberzanzorax wanted to know why so many people saw edition wars as overwhelmingly a negative thing with no real redeeming value. I guess he's got his answer now.

 

[Wormwood]

Well, Aberzanzorax wanted to know why so many people saw edition wars as overwhelmingly a negative thing with no real redeeming value. I guess he's got his answer now.

/thread

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Well, Aberzanzorax wanted to know why so many people saw edition wars as overwhelmingly a negative thing with no real redeeming value. I guess he's got his answer now.

On a side note, would you care to comment on similarities/differences between the 3E/4E transition and Edition Wars compared to the same events with oWoD/nWoD?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

We all succumb to halo effects, self-deception in order to maintain personal investments and our egos, and all manner of delusion that is part of the human condition. Insisting that "you're more deluded than we are" is a cute attempt to counterattack, straight from the book of debating dirty tricks marked "ad hominem attacks", but amounts to just another shot in the edition wars.

You misunderstand my meaning, I think. To be clear, I did not mean to imply people who like the game are any more deluded than I am. But saying 4E is deficient in some way will lead to all manner of defense from you guys, though, so it's hard to argue that you're comfortable with such subjective points being raised (thus the description "uncomfortable").

There's also such a thing as passive-aggressive behavior, and we see a lot of it in these sort of threads. Sometimes, I even believe it isn't intentional.

 

[rounser]

There's also such a thing as passive-aggressive behavior, and we see a lot of it in these sort of threads. Sometimes, I even believe it isn't intentional.

You're talking meaningless psychobabble. If you're going to launch ad hominem attacks, at least try to drop the pseudo-intellectualism, eh?

And if you're going to correct someone, please try not to sound like a jerk. There's a polite way to tell someone they may not be using the correct terms, but that isn't it. ~ PCat

 

[Steel_Wind]

This perception further alienates the 3E community from the 4E community.

Ah, at last. A statement which underlies WHY the whole Edition War issue actually IS potentially a REAL problem on ENWorld.

There are a large number of mods and warnings and RED TEXT appearing in messages and locked threads (apologies for the demonstrative text coloring). To be completely honest, I think there is, from time-to-time, a significant over-reaction by both posters and mods here on ENworld regarding the whole "edition war" issue.

It's just a game. Expressing dislike for a particular game or style of game is frequently (and simply) what many gamers do when they post online. It's not a bad thing in and of itself.

But the statement you wrote above ABSOLUTELY (though unwittingly) nevertheless captures the Essence of the Problem. Let me requote:

This perception further alienates the 3E community from the 4E community.

A 3E community and a 4E community? Dude, WTF are you talking about?

There IS no "3E" and "4E" community. There are 3E players and 4E players - but there isn't a different COMMUNITY. The COMMUNITY is a shared one of "D&D players". That is what ENWorld is all about. One community which plays a number of role-playing games.

It should be abundantly clear by now that ensuring there is NOT a fracturing of the ENWorld "community" into two separate "3E" and 4E "communities" is why the moderation of these topics continues in the way that it does.

If all we were talking about was taking shots at either version of the game, it wouldn't matter a fiddler's fart. If all we were talking about was some "heated" and personal attacks and flames -- well that wouldn't REALLY matter either. Sure it might be against The Rules, but that in and of itself really doesn't matter a damn either, on its own.

But when the language is so heated that players of different versions of the game draw battle-lines and perceive they are in separate "communities"? When that happens, we got a REAL problem folks.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Ah, at last. A statement which underlies WHY the whole Edition War issue actually IS potentially a REAL problem on ENWorld.

There are a large number of mods and warnings and RED TEXT appearing in messages and locked threads (apoligies for the demonstrative text coloring). To be completely honest, I think there is, from time-to-time, a significant over-reaction here by both posters and mods here on ENworld regarding the whole "edition war" issue.

It's just a game. Expressing dislike for a particular game or style of game is frequently (and simply) what many gamers do when they post online. It's not a bad thing in and of itself.

But the statement you wrote above ABSOLUTELY (though unwittingly) nevertheless captures the Essence of the Problem. Let me requote:



A 3E community and a 4E community? Dude, WTF are you talking about?

There IS no "3E and "4E" community. There are 3E players and 4E players - but there isn't a different COMMUNITY. The COMMUNITY is a shared one of "D&D players". That is what ENWorld is all about. One community which plays a number of role-playing games.

It should be abundantly clear by now that ensuring there is NOT a fracturing of the ENWorld "community" into two separate "3E" and 4E "communities" is why the moderation of these topics continues in the way that it does.

If all we were talking about was taking shots at either version of the game, it wouldn't matter a fiddler's fart. It all we were talking about was some "heated" and personal attacks and flames -- well that wouldn't REALLY matter either. Sure it might be against The Rules, but that in and of itself really doesn't matter a damn either, on its own.

But when the language is so heated that players of different versions of the game draw battle-lines and perceive they are in separate "communities"? When that happens, we got a REAL problem folks.

Ouch, nice one.

I might add that there are two types of fracturing that can occur. One is when things devolve into two "camps" because of the heated argument and the behavior of the other "side". To be more specific, to become angry at a certain position enough that you don't consider them worthy of respect and a place in the community. The other type of fracturing is self created, when it is decided independently that a certain group or position isn't welcome in "your" community, or when you independently decide to remove yourself from an existing community.

When I speak of communities here or the lack thereof, I'm mostly speaking about the presence or lack thereof of the respect you would give other members of a community you consider yourself a part of.

 

[Barastrondo]

On a side note, would you care to comment on similarities/differences between the 3E/4E transition and Edition Wars compared to the same events with oWoD/nWoD?

Well, certainly the oWoD/nWoD wars shaped my viewpoint on edition wars as a whole: they're nasty, bitter, divisive things without much redeeming value whatsoever. Even if a person sets out to try and let off steam harmlessly in the beginning, too often (which is to say generally always) it doesn't stay that way. It becomes something where each side isn't trying to make themselves feel better, they're trying to make the other guys — be it the company who makes the product, or the people who like and purchase the Other Edition — feel worse. It's depressing, and I can count on the fingers of zero hands the number of people I've seen come out of an edition war dust-up feeling more respectful and sympathetic to the "other side" than they went in. Some people stay respectful and sympathetic the whole time, sure — but nobody gets better. It's a war. People are trying to damage each other, or at least the source of one another's fun. Hard to respect and sympathize with that viewpoint on either side.

Any "positive" effect they might have on making a company consider how best to approach a similar big change is kind of counterbalanced by the fact that when people behave so incredibly badly toward one another, the phrase "toxic customer" begins to surface. The angriest and most vitriolic of fans just don't become worth the effort to win them back — it would take Grand Gestures that are out of the question, sometimes even as spiteful as "And make all these people who run games in a way I don't enjoy go play some other game."

RPGs' success and health is built on the backs of the people who teach other people how to play the games they enjoy. Designers and writers take it very seriously when we offend those folks. However, the viral nature of RPGs also means that one outright jerk, even if he buys one of each of your supplements, is not a fan you want if he drives away more people from your games than he brings in.

When people make themselves look like outright jerks by edition warring — particularly when they do it all the time, especially when they can't talk about different editions without becoming angry — it becomes very hard to tell the worthy but mistreated fan you want back (or that you want to remain loyal) from the toxic one that you don't. Refraining from Edition War isn't just the decent "respect the other guy" thing to do, it's also a much better way to make your case as someone who should be heard.