Edition wars...a GOOD thing? or if not, an APPROPRIATE thing?

[N0Man]

Insisting that "you're more deluded than we are" is a cute attempt to counterattack, straight from the book of debating dirty tricks marked "ad hominem attacks", but amounts to just another shot in the edition wars.

You are trying to skew and spin what I have said into something I did not. I did not say, "you're more deluded than we are."

I'm saying that the notion of a person assuming or implying that someone who disagrees with you is practicing self-deception due to the fact that they don't agree with you seems to be extremely lacking in perspective. It's an arrogant viewpoint of, "I'm right! If they can't see it, then it's because they don't want to see it, or are too deceived to see it!"

It's not only assuming that you are infallible in something that is as subjective as a matter of aesthetics or taste, but it also makes assumptions on what the other person is thinking.

You misunderstand my meaning, I think. To be clear, I did not mean to imply people who like the game are any more deluded than I am. But saying 4E is deficient in some way will lead to all manner of defense from you guys, though, so it's hard to argue that you're comfortable with such subjective points being raised (thus the description "uncomfortable").

You still seem to be implying the same thing, which is that there is such an emotional investment that 4E players have to either delude themselves into thinking a criticism is without merit or squirm at some criticism you lobbed at us as though it is an objective truth, rather than a matter of taste.

There are lots of criticisms of 4E that I disagree with. There are many that paint a skewed picture of the game system which have a hint of truth but are tainted by spin and bias. There are criticisms that I sympathize with, but feel that even though I can understand the criticism, I understand why it is the way it is and feel that it's a reasonable (or even sometimes a hard but good) choice by the designers.

And there are some criticisms I'd say, "yeah, I feel the same way on that, so I just house rule that."

What I find uncomfortable is not critical assessment and discussing the flaws and merits of a game, how it can be improved, or what other games can be played (or borrowed from) to get the style of game that I want. These are not absolutes anyway, but usually matters of taste.

However, antagonistic behavior, trolling, being belittled over my choice of game, or being attacked as a player in such a way that I'm put on the defensive for my choice, that is uncomfortable.

I don't want to argue about what game system is better, and I've continuously said they all have something to offer. There'd be no 4E without 3E, just like there'd be no 3E without 2E.

I don't even like arguing about arguing...

 

[tyrlaan]

RPGs' success and health is built on the backs of the people who teach other people how to play the games they enjoy. Designers and writers take it very seriously when we offend those folks. However, the viral nature of RPGs also means that one outright jerk, even if he buys one of each of your supplements, is not a fan you want if he drives away more people from your games than he brings in.

When people make themselves look like outright jerks by edition warring — particularly when they do it all the time, especially when they can't talk about different editions without becoming angry — it becomes very hard to tell the worthy but mistreated fan you want back (or that you want to remain loyal) from the toxic one that you don't. Refraining from Edition War isn't just the decent "respect the other guy" thing to do, it's also a much better way to make your case as someone who should be heard.

1000 times this.

Seriously, if my first delve into the world of RPGs ran into any of this edition war mishigas I'm not so sure I'd bother getting into RPGs at all.

If only people spent the same amount of energy bringing new players into the fold as they do edition warring, RPGs would be so mainstream it would warrant a primetime sitcom by now ;-)

 

[rounser]

When people make themselves look like outright jerks by edition warring — particularly when they do it all the time, especially when they can't talk about different editions without becoming angry — it becomes very hard to tell the worthy but mistreated fan you want back (or that you want to remain loyal) from the toxic one that you don't.

I'm not sure that every "toxic customer" even wants a resolution or reacceptance. Yes, we are powerless, and you've already abandoned us, and some of us have refused to go gently into that dark night with nary a whimper. Saying you don't want us back anyway is kind of predictable given you're already committed to stay the course and we've mutually alienated one another in word and deed.

I suppose it would ideally play out something like this for you:

"Thanks for the 30 years, but now we've fired you as a customer by fundamentally redefining something you were formerly a long term enthusiast of. Now kindly shut up and go away. You're putting off people who might buy something."

"OK."

That's not a very realistic expectation, but I can see how a company or design team would feel entitled for it to proceed that way.

For what it's worth, I don't even think this design team could create what I'd consider a "reconciliation version" of 5E D&D, because from what I've seen of their goals and design philosophy we're not even on the same page for so much of what we consider makes the game tick. They'd probably not even be aiming at what I'd consider the "right" targets. Curious that D&D used to be such a broad church that their philosophies and mine could coexist on the same rules palette, but no more.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, we are powerless, and you've already abandoned us, and some of us have refused to go gently into that dark night with nary a whimper.

Asking out of honest curiosity, what tangible benefits are achieved by raging, raging against the dying of the light (if I may stretch your metaphor)?

edit: because honestly, I have no interest in seeing General RPG Discussion becoming the 3.5 Wailing Wall.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'm not sure that every "toxic customer" even wants a resolution or reacceptance. Yes, we are powerless, and you've already abandoned us, and some of us have refused to go gently into that dark night with nary a whimper. Saying you don't want us back anyway is kind of predictable given you're already committed to stay the course and we've mutually alienated one another in word and deed.

I suppose it would ideally play out something like this for you:

"Thanks for the 30 years, but now we've fired you as a customer by fundamentally redefining something you were formerly a long term enthusiast of. Now kindly shut up and go away. You're putting off people who might buy something."

"OK."

That's not a very realistic expectation, but I can see how a company or design team would feel entitled for it to proceed that way.

For what it's worth, I don't even think this design team could create what I'd consider a "reconciliation version" of 5E D&D, because from what I've seen of their goals and design philosophy we're not even on the same page for so much of what we consider makes the game tick. They'd probably not even be aiming at what I'd consider the "right" targets. Curious that D&D used to be such a broad church that their philosophies and mine could coexist on the same rules palette, but no more.

I can understand where you're coming from. In fact, either earlier in this thread or the other one I was describing where you're coming from to a 4E fan trying to put all of this on people who complain about 4E. You have a legitimate beef.

I still have to ask the question though, why is it ok to subject ENWorld to this? What is accomplished by subjecting ENWorld to this? Does the fact that there really isn't a satisfactory outlet for this justify dumping it on the greater RPG community?

 

[Barastrondo]

I'm not sure that every "toxic customer" even wants a resolution or reacceptance.

To some people "toxic" does become sort of the desired state, yes.

I suppose it would ideally play out something like this for you:

Ideally, I wouldn't have the attitude that you ascribe to me, and the customers who don't care for a new product I put out wouldn't feel a need to demonize me and my coworkers. (Edit: This is actually what I'm talking about: when you put words in the other side's mouth, you fail to convey that you have a legitimate grievance. If all you project is emotional hyperbole and veiled attacks, then how can anyone tell if there's a core solid point to your arguments, or if you're just trolling?)

That's not a matter of feeling "entitled as a publisher." It's really just sort of "hoping for people to treat one another with a basic level of courtesy," just like hoping that if you go to the movies nobody will be yelling at the screen every time something happens that isn't to his liking.

We are in the hobby of pretending to be elves. The people who make a living at it make a living at selling guidelines for pretending to be elves to people who would like to buy guidelines to pretend to be elves. It astounds me that this is something some people take so seriously they're not just willing to act like obnoxious jerks over Proper Elf-Pretend Procedures, but they feel it's their moral duty to do so.

 

[N0Man]

For what it's worth, I don't even think this design team could create what I'd consider a "reconciliation version" of 5E D&D, because from what I've seen of their goals and design philosophy we're not even on the same page for so much of what we consider makes the game tick. They'd probably not even be aiming at what I'd consider the "right" targets. Curious that D&D used to be such a broad church that their philosophies and mine could coexist on the same rules palette, but no more.

Why take it personal though? I keep hearing "WotC abandoned us!" No they didn't, they tried something new and something they thought was fun, interesting, something that might gain new customers, and trying to breathe new ideas into D&D. You may not like their choices, but they did for them, for players, and for profit, not to slight you or anyone else.

If a writer that you love decides to try a different style that isn't to your taste, is that a personal offense to you? Did they abandon you, or are they trying to stay creative, explore new ideas, or maybe try to reach new readers?

I haven't liked the direction of mainstream music in the last 15 years, but I don't go onto music forums and complain about it. I just don't listen to it, find something I like (which includes quite a bit of things I liked 20 years ago) and continue on.

 

[rounser]

Asking out of honest curiosity, what tangible benefits are achieved by raging, raging against the dying of the light (if I may stretch your metaphor)?

Probably none, I doubt they're listening with any sympathy. No-one's going to slap their forehead after listening to someone written off as a "toxic customer" or someone "impossible to please" and recant most of "the design that will save D&D" that they've invested so much of themselves in. But I'm passionate about the game, and care what happens to it, and will argue my corner on things D&D...perhaps out of habit, grief, or a sense of outrage.

I know it would be convenient for you if I shut up and go away (and I have to an extent, I don't frequent ENWorld much anymore), but that just frustrates me with what WOTC have done all the more. Yes they own the trademark, but to me D&D is bigger than WOTC and what they've decided is 4E. I guess I'd be more willing to walk away if it were their baby that they were redefining, but it's not, they're no Gygax, Mentzer or Arneson. 30 years on, D&D belongs to all of us, and I don't care if you read that as unjustified entitlement.

To an extent I hope that D&D is deposed, now, and something I'd consider more D&Dish (like Pathfinder) would take it's place as top dog. That's probably my best hope for the game's future, albeit a quixotic one - I don't even play Pathfinder as my weekly game. I know 4E fans may consider that pernicious, but nowhere is it written that you should get your way either.

 

[Wormwood]

If a writer that you love decides to try a different style that isn't to your taste, is that a personal offense to you?

Okay, now I'm picturing an edition warrior hobbling James Wyatt with a sledgehammer and forcing him to write 3.75

 

[Garthanos]

Okay, now I'm picturing an edition warrior hobbling James Wyatt with a sledgehammer and forcing him to write 3.75

Lucky you I have visions of Cavemen offended by advertisements.