Effects lasting until the end of the encounter, w00t!

[HeinorNY]

I like the per-encounter abilities, and the fact that buff spells last the encounter...

But,

Am I the only one worried that the game will end up feeling a lot like (need to be careful here because I know where this can go) playing my world of warcraft character.

Can you tell me a WoW buff that last the encounter? I'm pretty sure all buffs have very specific durations, mines are exactly 30 min, 10 min and 10 secs.

When I play my character I have a set strategy, I always cast the same spells, in the same order…

Why do I feel like we may see the same thing in 4e, players will always open up with the best per encounter buff they have, seeing it lasts till the end of the encounter, get it out as fast as you can.

Isn't that just how the game is used to be played by most people already?

What WoW knows how to do well is to define when the combat starts and ends, and wich abilities can only be used outside of combat or inside of it, and those are aspects that could be cool for D&D.

 

[Kraydak]

It wasn't a problem with ToB, it wasn't a problem with the Factotum and it wasn't a problem with Saga. The WoTC design team has consistently shown it's possible to balance per encounter abilities without it getting fiddly or annoying, so maybe you should just take breather and accept the possibility that the designers aren't complete idiots, and have looked at these really obvious problems which would have come up in the first play test in the unlikely event they even got that far.

I don't have Dungeonscape or Saga, but ToB has no encounter-duration based abilities. It doesn't even have per-encounter abilities. ToB abilities are "fast reset", and the definition of "encounter" never comes up. (the reset is 1 minute (5? AFB) out of combat, or by class/feat if faster) People call ToB "per-encounter" because the reset time is, roughly, one short fight. ToB, in truth, is still a time based system.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't have Dungeonscape or Saga, but ToB has no encounter-duration based abilities. It doesn't even have per-encounter abilities. ToB abilities are "fast reset", and the definition of "encounter" never comes up. (the reset is 1 minute (5? AFB) out of combat, or by class/feat if faster) People call ToB "per-encounter" because the reset time is, roughly, one short fight. ToB, in truth, is still a time based system.

You're right.

People call Tome of Battle a per encounter system.

Its really a time based system.

One that's designed to match the concept of "per encounter" without its uncertainty.

Its been stated that Tome of Battle is a big influence in at least some of the per encounter abilities in 4e.

I think its safe to conclude that the designers are using "per encounter" exactly the way we (the reasonable amongst us) are using it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't have Dungeonscape or Saga, but ToB has no encounter-duration based abilities. It doesn't even have per-encounter abilities. ToB abilities are "fast reset", and the definition of "encounter" never comes up. (the reset is 1 minute (5? AFB) out of combat, or by class/feat if faster) People call ToB "per-encounter" because the reset time is, roughly, one short fight. ToB, in truth, is still a time based system.

There is a disconnect between the details of the implementation and the design concept behind it.

The design concept is having abilites that are available once (or any other limit) per encounter or last for one encounter.

The implementation defines costs for "refreshing" abilities in a way that makes it hard (ranging from "expensive" to "impossible") to do it within a typical encounter.
Examples are
- 5 minutes of rest (impossible during an encounter, since you're obviously involved in doing something "restless")
- Taking an action (taking actions worth one round to to regain an ability that doubles your damage per round is rarely useful.)

Both have the advantage of removing the arbitrariness of defining what an encounter actually constitutes, where it ends and where it starts.

It's a bit more difficult for me how to do this with durations, though. It's possible that it takes an action to "refresh" the duration of a buff (maybe one action every 5 minutes?), so it effectively lasts the whole combat. (But this would make it also an all-day ability, which might mean that:
- you have to choose which of the possible buffs you want to use (no more stacking half a dozens fo spells)
- you can do it only a limited number of times per day
- something far better than I can come up with.

 

[FireLance]

It's a bit more difficult for me how to do this with durations, though. It's possible that it takes an action to "refresh" the duration of a buff (maybe one action every 5 minutes?), so it effectively lasts the whole combat. (But this would make it also an all-day ability, which might mean that:
- you have to choose which of the possible buffs you want to use (no more stacking half a dozens fo spells)
- you can do it only a limited number of times per day
- something far better than I can come up with.

Per encounter buffs are less of a problem if you only have a small number of per encounter abilities, and there is no way to recover the "slot" used to power the buff until it expires. The cost of the buff is then the opportunity cost of using your per encounter abilities for something else.

For example, say you had three per encounter abilities, and you use one to give you a Strength boost. This means that during a typical encounter, you only have two other per encounter abilities to draw on, and even if you had some ability that allowed you to recover per encounter abilities quickly, you could only recover two abilities unless you gave up your Strength boost.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I don't have Dungeonscape or Saga, but ToB has no encounter-duration based abilities. It doesn't even have per-encounter abilities. ToB abilities are "fast reset", and the definition of "encounter" never comes up. (the reset is 1 minute (5? AFB) out of combat, or by class/feat if faster) People call ToB "per-encounter" because the reset time is, roughly, one short fight. ToB, in truth, is still a time based system.

I really, really hope that this is the system that 4e uses - it seems to be a very sensible system and one that works well.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Danzauker]

One thing that it seems to me that may people are missing is that the DM is in charge of "what is an encounter" from the buildup!

I mean, if he's designing his adventure, well, he perfectly knows from the start what is an encounter, how many guards are there behind the much-quoted door, how many hide behind the tapestries and such.

If he's running a published adventure, I pretty much expect that every encounter will be straightforwardly explained in the text.

That is to say, that I don't quite expect a DM to be surprised or have to adjudicate what's an encounter ON THE RUN.

Personally, I had some quirks at the very start with the notion of per-encounter abilities and powers. Now I like them very much.

Apart from the lessened bookkeeping, I feel them more "storytelling compatible".

In books, time is relative. When there's action, every detail counts. Than, when nothing happens, you read something like "later, that night...".

Who cares how much a spell lasts when it's not important for the story?

The fact that a (mostly) per-encounter based duration system can readily accommodate a fast paced adventure, where all the encounters happen in the span of one day, and a slow moving one where single encounters happen over weeks, it's quite interesting...

 

[jasin]

It wasn't a problem with ToB, it wasn't a problem with the Factotum and it wasn't a problem with Saga.

I don't think there are any abilities in ToB that last for the duration of the encounter. Anything that's not instantaneous or forever has a defined duration.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

One thing that it seems to me that may people are missing is that the DM is in charge of "what is an encounter" from the buildup!

People aren't missing that, rather they have experience with players who come up with (sometimes very weird) ideas to try and keep one encounter going on and on and on...you get the idea. And if you haven't met players yet to whom the DM's "No" simply means "try harder, I'm not convinced yet" no matter how nonsensical the idea, count yourself lucky.

 

[Darkness]

Yeah, a reasonable referee would treat it like that, but the typical "dungeon" setup in D&D always seemed to encourage the people I played with to steamroll as many encounters as possible while they were gloriously glowing and buffed, then come back to pick over the loot after they were delayed or finished today's murderous work. Even with all round/level spells at level 13 or so, you could easily wipe out some low-end enemies (3 rounds), dash to the next encounter (2 rounds), and then wipe out another group (6 rounds) before your buffs wore off. Of course, this mandated tracking exact round counts outside of combat, so it might not have been for everyone.

That's quite similar to how I usually acted in Diablo II after finding a shrine of some specific types (especially a +2 to all skills shrine or a +50% xp shrine). Good times...