Effects of banning "flashy" magic

[iwatt]

Some standard issue spells get thrown out with the bath water. Mage armor, teleport, one of the ones that really irks me is sending. You've probably considered this already, possibly even consider it a benefit.

Some spells, like Sending, I'll probably end up shifting to another school.

Losing teleport is a plus on my mind. It is one of the flashiest spells out there .

Well, are you likewise banning flashy magic weapons?

If a wizard can't create magical fire (*shock*), then I'd imagine it's pretty hard to create a magic sword that lights itself on fire on command.

Also, you lose things like wizards lighting candles with their fingertips ...

"Flashy stuff " items can be made through summoning elementals.....

I'd though about light and all that. I'm not sure, maybe just tack it on to illusion, since I'm also banning the shadow spells.

 

[iwatt]

I think you're hurting wizards more than clerics and druids (the two strongest classes in DnD). Wizards lose staples like Fireball, Teleport and battlefield control. But druids get to keep it in the form of Entangle. And clerics retain their two mightiest spells - Righteous Might and Harm.

Not going to have druids, since I want to run a more Renaissance-like period.

Of the staples you mention, the one that truly causes some imbalance (in my mind) is battlefield control. How to balance this?

Removing teleport works on both monsters and PCs. I think that's enough balance.

Fireball. This is a common rant of mine: Arcanists are more powerful if instead of focusing on blasting they focus on battlefield control, enchanting, distracting or buffing.

About clerics: You're right about them remaining too powerful. I have an idea for retooling them that basically consists in severly limiting their spell selection based on domain access and portfolios. But that, as they say, is another story.

 

[iwatt]

One effect of removing overt magic is that it becomes a lot harder to definitively prove someone is/is not a wizard. Or rather it's a lot easier to fake it.

First of all....nice description. And charlatans are exactly what I want to include in my homebrew. Now Experts are the new Adepts .

 

[iwatt]

We probably have a differing opinion of what constitutes "flashy" if you're keeping spells like mirror image, invisibility, and fly.

I think you'll have more success getting the feel you want if you just completely redo the spell lists for each caster type.

Yeah, but the whole point of my campaign is one in which illusionist and enchanters fight the good fight against demon-worshipping cults and evil necromancers.

About the Transmutation school, I'd ban it as well except I'd probably have a riot in my hands. Anyhow, fly becomes less powerful IMO, if you remove the artillery aspect.

 

[iwatt]

What I think you need to consider is (A) do you need to exclude Conjuration, (because Druids,for example, rely on Conjuration in the form of Summon Nature's Ally and such), (B) almost all summoning is Conjuration, which is useless if you exclude that school, (C) making summoning take a long period of time excludes the use of summoning in combat, and (D) magic using characters won't have much do to in combat other than pick up a weapon and start fighting. Is that what you really want?

Basically, think about what you want Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids to do when the combat starts. If you eliminate all of their combat spells, then what are the players going to do during the combat part of the game? Will they enjoy that role?

I want to exclude conjuration because I want to have my wizards enphasizing Illusion and Enchantment. I want to drift away from artillery. And Druids are banned since shapeshifting, summoning and elemtal striking is something I want to avoid. Clerics will be retooled.

Also, I'm not eliminating all their combat spells, just the most direct. Illusion, Enchantment, Necromancy and Trasmutation all have powerful attack spells

But I think you have a point. I've made the classes less sexy (for some types of players), although I'm not necesarily sure they're less powerful. So what do you recomend to correct this? More skillpoints for spellcasters maybe, more feats?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Some spells, like Sending, I'll probably end up shifting to another school.

Losing teleport is a plus on my mind. It is one of the flashiest spells out there .



"Flashy stuff " items can be made through summoning elementals.....

I'd thought about light and all that. I'm not sure, maybe just tack it on to illusion, since I'm also banning the shadow spells.

With Conjuration being a banned school, how are you going to summon elementals?

You might consider making a selection of conjuration/evocation spells Universal spells (sending, light spells, and so on- maybe a spell that summons elementals.) If the other schools are balanced with each other, making more Universal spells won't unbalance them.

 

[beaver1024]

If your definition of flashy is all spells of Evocation and Conjuration schools then by all means ban them. I don't it as having any effect on class balance as it stands. Wiz/sorcs are weak even with Evocation and Conjuration so banning them makes no difference. Clerics will of course overpower everything but what else is new.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Have you considered just removing wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids entirely?

Okay, you're laughing at me, but I think what you want is a world where spellcasters are all mechanically bards.

Notice I said mechanically. Not cosmetically. Bardic knowledge becomes mystic lore. Their various "musical" abilities become an innate ability to influence the people around them through magic. And their spells, for the most part, stay the same.

No flash. Still some healing. Lots of enchantment, divination, etc. And with a few cosmetic tweaks, the bard mechanics could easily serve as an old wizard (did Gandalf really do much that a bard couldn't?), a priest, or what have you.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I really don't think that what you want can be attained without going through the spell list and nixing everything you don't like on a one-for-one basis. Banning conjuration, for instance, loses grease, obscuring mist, minor creation. I don't think these need to be removed from the game so much as their descriptions changed... add a longer casting time to obscuring mist (and summon swarm) for instance, and they become a lot more subtle, as a seemingly natural mist flows in off the moor...

Shocking grasp, darkness, shatter, gust of wind, sending all go if you ban evocation...

Conversely you've left in fly, blink, mirror image etc etc.

One possibility might be to look at the RPGA-sanctioned living death campaign. Set in victorian earth, the spell lists are restricted, spellcasting classes reworked, and spells altered to be a lot more subtle and a lot less flashy.

 

[iwatt]

With Conjuration being a banned school, how are you going to summon elementals?

You might consider making a selection of conjuration/evocation spells Universal spells (sending, light spells, and so on- maybe a spell that summons elementals.) If the other schools are balanced with each other, making more Universal spells won't unbalance them.

I'm shifting summoning to a ritual that needs to be researched. It'll be skill-based instead of spell-level based. AThe point is to ermove instant summoning from the game (it's a flavor thing)

I really don't think that what you want can be attained without going through the spell list and nixing everything you don't like on a one-for-one basis. Banning conjuration, for instance, loses grease, obscuring mist, minor creation. I don't think these need to be removed from the game so much as their descriptions changed... add a longer casting time to obscuring mist (and summon swarm) for instance, and they become a lot more subtle, as a seemingly natural mist flows in off the moor...

I'm starting to see this as well, but I'm not ready to quit yet...

So the schools of magic, and their subschools are:

Abjuration (No subschool) keep all of it.

Conjuration (Summoning, Calling, Creation, Healing, Summoning, Teleportation) ban summoning, calling, teleportation. I like your idea of lengthening the casting times of the spells though. Alos, I might ban the damage dealing conjurations

Divination keep all of it.

Enchantment (Compulsion, Charm) all of it.

Evocation Remove all dierct damage spells. shift utility to Universal.

Illusion (Glamer, Figment, Pattern, Phantasm, Shadow ban shadow. Some people say that these spells are "flashy", but aren't about direct damage dealing, so tehy're OK in my book.

Necromancy keep it as is. In my homebrew, Necro is EEEvil....

Transmutation This is the hardest for me to judge. As many have mentioned, many of the spells are "flashy" as well. I'll mark in bold face those spells I consider too flashy.

The Core transmutation spells are:

Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.

Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.

Message: Whispered conversation at distance.

Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.

Animate Rope: Makes a rope move at your command.

Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.

Erase: Mundane or magical writing vanishes.

Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.

Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.

Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.

Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.

Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.

Alter Self: Assume form of a similar creature.

Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.

Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.

Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.

Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.

Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.

Fox’s Cunning: Subject gains +4 Int for 1 min./level.

Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.

Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.

Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.

Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.

Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in extradimensional space.

Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.

Whispering Wind: Sends a short message 1 mile/level.

Blink: You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/level.

Flame Arrow: Arrows deal +1d6 fire damage.

Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly.

Haste: One creature/level moves faster, +1 on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves.

Keen Edge: Doubles normal weapon’s threat range.

Magic Weapon, Greater: +1/four levels (max +5).

Secret Page: Changes one page to hide its real content.

Shrink Item: Object shrinks to one-sixteenth size.

Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –2 to AC, –2 on attack rolls.

Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.

Enlarge Person, Mass: Enlarges several creatures.

Mnemonic Enhancer F: Wizard only. Prepares extra spells or retains one just cast.

Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.

Reduce Person, Mass: Reduces several creatures.

Stone Shape: Sculpts stone into any shape.

Animal Growth: One animal/two levels doubles in size.

Baleful Polymorph: Transforms subject into harmless animal.

Fabricate: Transforms raw materials into finished items.

Overland Flight: You fly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.

Passwall: Creates passage through wood or stone wall.

Telekinesis: Moves object, attacks creature, or hurls object or creature.

Transmute Mud to Rock: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.

Transmute Rock to Mud: Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.

Bear’s Endurance, Mass: As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.

Bull’s Strength, Mass: As bull’s strength, affects one subject/ level.

Cat’s Grace, Mass: As cat’s grace, affects one subject/level.

Control Water: Raises or lowers bodies of water.

Disintegrate: Makes one creature or object vanish.

Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.

Flesh to Stone: Turns subject creature into statue.

Fox’s Cunning, Mass: As fox’s cunning, affects one subject/ level.

Mage’s Lucubration: Wizard only. Recalls spell of 5th level or lower.

Move Earth: Digs trenches and build hills.

Owl’s Wisdom, Mass: As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/ level.

Stone to Flesh: Restores petrified creature.

Transformation M: You gain combat bonuses.

Control Weather: Changes weather in local area.

Ethereal Jaunt: You become ethereal for 1 round/level.

Reverse Gravity: Objects and creatures fall upward.

Statue: Subject can become a statue at will.

Iron Body: Your body becomes living iron.

Polymorph Any Object: Changes any subject into anything else.

Temporal Stasis M: Puts subject into suspended animation.

Etherealness: Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.

Shapechange F: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.

Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.

which has me banning 34/73 transmutation spells. Might add or remove some though, so any input is welcome.

By the way, just to make my self clear. I wanto radically shift the enphasis my group has lately had of going blaster and doing the SCry-Buff-Teleport. And I want a place were magic is misterious, and advanced alchemy is almost as powerful as the low level wizards.

Some people believe that I've nerfed the wizard too much. But I am removing the other blaster class (the druid) and will nerf the cleric to bring it into the same tone of the wizard. It's msotly a flavor thing though. Also, monsters that can only be defeated through magical blasting shall not be in play.

Still, the whole banning of almost half the Transmutation school scares me a bit. So what do I give the wizard?

1) An extra spell per level above and beyond the one they gain from specializing?

2) More skill points? better skill list as well (adding social skills)?

3)something else?

Thanx for all your help, but please continue with the feedback.