EL and larger or smaller parties

[doomwh]

I currently am part of three gaming groups. We are all playing 3.5, I'm a player in two and GMing one. One of the groups I'm a player in has six PC's while the other is currently hosting five PC's. The one I'm the GM for is three and sometimes just two strong. The common theme among these games is that none have the magic number"four" PC's. In fact I've rarely been in a party with four characters and I've been playing since 80.The DM guide just glosses over increasing EL of an encounter or cutting it down some and just doesn't seem to be enough examples of how a GM can make adjustments due to party size. You'd think by now we'd be able to accuratly challange PC's but that is not the case. Either the encounter is too easy (in particular when your dealing with one creature with the correct CL) or we nearly get crushed and GM looks frustrated by the encounter. When I've been GMing I have found myself having to change the encounter as we are playing to either save the characters or make things a little more challanging. Its not the players fault and I don't have the time to run six mock battles just to see how it goes.
I was wondering if any of you could give me and my friends advice on scaling the encounters due to party size. Or maybe Dungeon could run an artical with some examples and different solutions any writers or GMs have come up with. I'm not looking for hard numbers just advice on what works for you.
I remember making adventures in the old days (2nd edition)and I don't recall these inconsistancies in the balancing of the game. I love the 3.5 rules and know its a better system especialy if you have five players (one GM and four players), but this is rarly the case in our campaigns. Well any help or advice would be appreciated, and I'm sure some space in Dungeon for this topic would be welcome. I also posted this on the paizo message boards so if your reading this again I apologize.
Thanks

 

[Shin Okada]

On calculation, a 6 men party is supposed to be as strong as a 4 men party of +1 level. Because when number of creature increase by 50%, that is +1 EL. And a 5 men party is in between a 4 men party and a 6 men party.

Think like this. A 5-men party of 4th-level characters are like a pary of 4.5th-level characters. A 6-men party of 4th-level characters are like a party of 5th-level characters.

In case of an encounter against a bunch of weaker opponents, just increase their number accordingly. I mean, if there was 8 goblins, use 10 goblins for a 5-men party, and use 12 goblins for a 6-men party.

In case of single (or smaller number of) strong opponent, advance it and increase the CR by 1 for a 6-men party. In case of 5-men party, either advance it slightly (how about adding a level of non-associated class?) or add a lesser creature.

But anyway, making an appropriate encounter is better done through DMs own determination and test-play. Calculation is just a calculation and not perfect. It was so in previous editions, too.

 

[Pinotage]

When working with larger parties its best to increase opponent numbers rather than increasing the CR of individual monsters. This is because while by EL the party can face the creature, its CR might imply that it has abilities the party is not capable of facing yet.

e.g. A gargoyle is a CR 4 creature. 4 4th level characters should be able to handle it easily. If you pit 6 3rd level characters against it, the fight is more difficult as it's unlikely the party will have a weapon to overcome the DR 10/magic. Not impossible with Magic Weapon spells, but it makes more demand on party resource. It can be more extreme than the example above.

Pinotage

 

[shilsen]

The easiest way to calculate appropriate encounters for a group of any size is to work out the EL of the group itself and minus 4. That gives you the EL of a balanced encounter (as the DMG defines it) for the group.

For example:
* A party of four 5th lvl PCs has an EL of 9 (two 5s = 7, two 7s = 9), so a balanced encounter for them is 9-4 = ... surprise, surprise ... EL 5.

* A group of six 8th lvl PCs has an EL of 13, so a balanced encounter for them is EL 9.

* A group of three 10th lvl PCs has an EL of 13, so a balanced encounter for them is EL 9.

And so on...

That being said, make sure not to rely totally on EL calculations but rather to eyeball the nature of the challenge on the basis of the specific circumstances, the strengths/weaknesses of the party, etc. A 6th lvl bard is the same EL as two 5th lvl fighters or as a troll and a 3rd lvl wizard, but each of them will create vastly different challenges for your group.

 

[sfedi]

IME, to properly challenge a party facing a lone enemy, you have to increase the CR of that enemy at least by 1.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Here's a hint: Lone enemies don't work [very well] in D&D.

If you think that a particular lone enemy is not quite strong enough to challenge the party, don't make him tougher.

Instead, add a couple allies.

It'll work much, much better.

 

[Nail]

Here's a hint: Lone enemies don't work [very well] in D&D.

Let me second this. This is a HUGE tip for DMs.

 

[doomwh]

Thanks for everyones input you have given me somethings to try and I appreciate it. Thanks again.