EL of this encounter -- my Players stay out

[Nail]

My question here has nothing to do with how to award xp for this encounter. I was just asking what the encounter level would be – note that xp is not awarded based on EL, so getting sidetracked into a debate on xp awards is tangential (at best) to my question.

Not true.

CR is not based on the circumstances of the encounter. EL is. Awarded XP is based on both the CR of any creatures or traps and is adjusted by the circumstances (which is what EL models).

So: XP is awarded based (in part!) on EL.

As for your assertion that "xp awards is tangential (at best) to my question".....why do you care about the EL if not to determine the XP award?

 

[gwythinn]

In light of your reiteration that you're asking specifically about EL, I agree that it ought to be 7. Any encounter which includes the threat of facing a CR7 creature ought to be considered that EL, IMO.

Given the game mechanics, though, I think the question of CR and experience awards is a much more interesting one. This is a bit of a philosophical argument (i.e. unsupported by the rules), as it's been over a year since I've actually read my DMG, and even that was 3.0.

I've always felt that a trap that may or may not cause you to fight monsters should have a much lower CR than just placing the monster. If just facing a mini-efreet that's guaranteed to be there is CR7, then why wouldn't adding a straightforward way to bypass the encounter reduce the CR for the encounter? Overcoming a challenge which MAY result in a CR7 is less risky than actually facing a CR7 encounter. If the efreet does appear, then of course the PCs should receive the appropriate award for facing a CR7 challenge, but if they bypass it by magic or by disarming a trap, they never really faced the kind of risk posed by a CR7 encounter, and their reward should be reduced accordingly. Also, what if they tunneled through underneath the prison without ever even discovering the trap was there? Technically they "overcame" the challenge, but completely unwittingly and with zero risk to themselves. In this case, I don't think they should get anything -- just as if they had gone down an alternate corridor which reached the same destination but without challenges.

 

[Quasqueton]

A summoned efreet cannot physically attack someone who has protection from ___ going, or even approach a magic circle. A summoned efreet could simply be dispelled (via dispel magic, both could be sent back with dispel evil). The summoned efreet also will not grant any wishes, as if you had planned that to happen anyway.

In short, summoned creatures are generally much more restricted than called creatures, because they don't stand to lose as much. I'd guess you intend the efreet to be called.

Actually, I was just thinking the efreet would use his own innate plane shift ability, with the “conjuration area” (only visible with detect magic) as a sort of targeting device so he shows up right there, and not 5-500 miles away.

It’s just a gimmick to make the dungeon more interesting than, “There’s an efreet standing in the room.” Thank God my Players never look that closely at the weaving of the universe around their PCs.

So: XP is awarded based (in part!) on EL.

Two [normal] efreet are EL10, but you award xp for two CR8s. EL is at most a possible influence on xp awards. There is no calculation for xp using EL.

why do you care about the EL if not to determine the XP award?

I’m curious.

Quasqueton

 

[Nail]

Overcoming a challenge which MAY result in a CR7 is less risky than actually facing a CR7 encounter.

Absolutely.

DMG 3.5e p. 39:

"Sometimes, the circumstances give the character's opponents a distinct advantage. Other times, the PCs have an advantage. Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter difficulty."

Using the OP's encounter of a trap of a called "mini-efreet" behind a barred wall...I'd say the CR = 7, and the EL is 6 (i.e. 2/3 the XP for a CR 7).

Again, check out page 39 of the 3.5e DMG.

 

[Nail]

There is no calculation for xp using EL.

I'm sorry, Quasqueton, but that's not entirely correct.

 

[Quasqueton]

I'm sorry, Quasqueton, but that's not entirely correct.

I’m open to learning. Where is the EL – XP calculation? If you are referring to:

Adjust the XP award and the EL depending on how greatly circumstances change the encounter difficulty.

Why would it say to adjust the XP *and* EL? If there is a calculation for XP from EL, wouldn’t just adjusting the EL be enough, and the XP would automatically adjust from that?

Quasqueton

 

[Infiniti2000]

As for your assertion that "xp awards is tangential (at best) to my question".....why do you care about the EL if not to determine the XP award?

The DMG suggests that EL is "useful in balancing an encounter with a PC party." (DMG Pg. 48) That's what I infer from the DMG and that's how I use EL. I would never use EL to calculate XP and I think it can be a big mistake if you do.

The DMG does not in any way suggest using EL to calculate XP. You use CR and then adjust the total XP in the same way you adjusted the EL.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It’s just a gimmick to make the dungeon more interesting than, “There’s an efreet standing in the room.” Thank God my Players never look that closely at the weaving of the universe around their PCs.

(I hope this part of the discussion is useful to you. It seems like you are being annoyed by it, I really hope that's not the case.)

Gimmicks are cool. I'm down with that. I in fact like the choice of the targeting area. It actually makes for a potential very interesting subplot. The PCs decide to dispel magic the conjuration area and then touch the bars. The efreet plane shifts, but appears 5-500 miles away . . . very angry. What does he do?

 

[Quasqueton]

(I hope this part of the discussion is useful to you. It seems like you are being annoyed by it, I really hope that's not the case.)

What was annoying was the immediate attempt to turn this into a debate on the letter of the rules for xp vs. DM judgement based on in-game circumstances. "Hey, if the PCs get past the monster without ever even knowing it was there, they should still get full XP for the 'challenge'." First, that had nothing to do with my question in this thread, and second, ruleslawyers are not fun.

More useful to me, and less annoying would have been just mentioning that a knock spell might get the PCs through the room without an encounter. Rather than the ruleslawyer antagonism of essentially, "Haha, the PCs can get through that room without facing the efreet, and you still have to give them full XP. Haha."

Gimmicks are cool. I'm down with that.

Earlier in the thread, this setup was called a "trap." It's not really a trap. In my mind and intentions, it's just an encounter with an efreet that doesn't start when the PCs step into the room, but rather after they've been in the room for a few moments and they "activate" the encounter. I could just have the efreet standing in the room, waiting, but that's not as interesting as having the PCs "summon" it by some mundane action (like just touching the barred wall or portculls).

I in fact like the choice of the targeting area. It actually makes for a potential very interesting subplot. The PCs decide to dispel magic the conjuration area and then touch the bars. The efreet plane shifts, but appears 5-500 miles away . . . very angry. What does he do?

Unfortunately, with my group, subplots (and main plots) are rarely recognized, much less followed or solved.

Quasqueton

 

[ceratitis]

a slight derailing question if you dont mind
say your players come up to the room and detect magic, with a stroke of luck and/or smarts the decide to use divinations spells and figure out the essense of the trap if not the details say something like "touching the bars will be dangerous" combined with the knowledge that conjuration magic is involved. they then decide to use the afore mentioned knock spell and breese through the encounter without fighting. do they deserve full EL 7 Xp?
Z