Elans: Too Good?

[Terwox]

I thought that it was a general rule that you can't declare a modifier like that after the effects of the save have been determined/announced.

So if you already know how much damage you took, it's too late.

I think he's talking about doing that before the person has rolled their save.
I think it's another issue, if you tell people how much damage they're saving against before or after they roll.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've recently had the chance to see an Elan (Wilder) in action. He's been an effective character, and used the hp conversion ability a lot, but he's certainly not been overpowering or equal in power to a dwarf.

The 16 (= current level) extra hp and basically constant +3 to Fort saves and +2 to others (how many saves against non-magical, non-poison effects are there?) more than outweigh the pp cost, once per round +4 to saves or damage ablation.

 

[Zipher]

Ah, there is a catch, "immediate action" limits you to only using one of those powers a turn... so I can't stack them (incase I fail the save anyways), or use it to prevent damage from multiple sources.

Though, even in this "weakened" interpretation of the Elan's Powers, I would still say a choice of not dying when taking massive damage (usually from unexpected Rat-Bastard-DM explosions) is pretty good. Like if I'm at 11Hp-20pp and I get smacked for 50 damage, I could at least survive to play another day

Vigor (+5 temp HP) is good only if you see the explosion coming...

But...
So this begs the question... can I get around the One_Immediate_Action/Round? a feat/skill/power or something that lets me use more then one immediate action per round?

-Zipher

 

[Kelleris]

The only thing I've ever seen that allows for multiple swift/immediate actions in one round is Multispell, and that's an epic feat with restricted use.

 

[Scion]

Scion, I hate to say this, and I do not mean it as an insult, but when it comes to anything psionic, I don't think your opinion is objective. You seem to downplay every psionic advantage, and play up every psionic weakness.

My own post earlier indicated my belief that the Elan may not be overpowered compared to the dwarf, but the race is certainly on the strong side of +0, something you seem unwilling to admit and which strikes me as painfully obvious.

::shrugs:: you talked it up, I talked it down. I made sure to put up its costs while you were extolling its virtues. Whatever you like of course, but saying that it is not objective is useless. You presented one side and I took devils advocate for the other.

In my first post I already compared useing the halflings ability (which is an always on, though lesser, same type bonus).

For the most part the abilities are pretty underwhelming though. At lower levels they can help, as levels increase though needing that swift action (as it does take away a swift action) will happen more and more often. Also, as I previously mentioned, there are many other powers that the psionic character may want to get which help over a good range of circumstances and work much better.

So, it uses up the racial abilities (as in, you can get some other races abilities) and it costs pp (although 2 are given by the race itself that is a pretty low number) and it costs an action (which grows in importance as levels increase, which means that as one goes up in levels the racial abilities tend to be used less and less, making them effectively worth less and less, hence the underwhelming).

So, if one has no pp to spare (pp are a very valuable commodity, burning a few here and there will wind up cutting pretty deeply into how many powers can be used in a day. Such as with the other thread about psionic damage compared with arcane, after just a few uses of this ability, say 2 or 3 per battle, the damage that the psion does goes down) then the elan has the racial ability of '-2 cha' and 'abberation'.

-2 cha is obviously bad. Some builds can get around it, but then some builds can get around any stat. That does not change it from being bad.

Abberation type is nice and all, but it also makes one immune to 'beneficial' spells/effects that are based on being humanoid as well. There is a great deal of abberation hate spells and effects in Eberron in case you were wondering though.

The class grants 2 pps, allowing the +4 to saves to be used twice with no cost whatsoever.

Other than 2 pp, 2 immediate actions and needing to be an elan?

But then, that is only twice. The halfling and dwarfs abilities are on all day long, conscious or not. If one wanted to instead not have to eat today then they only get one save boost. If they want to reduce damage by 2 or 4 then they might not even get a save bonus at all today. I doubt that for a nonpsionic anyone would call this race overpowered.

If one is a psionic class though (gains pp rather) then the elan can burn class abilities to make the race actually do something. This is more of a synergy than anything else. Saying that the race is overpowered because of it doesnt make a lot of sense, one could just as easily say that the class is overpowered because of it, both are nonsense.

However, looking at a class that gains pp and useing it with the elan means simply that one is burning class abilities to make the racial abilities work. Other races dont have that penalty.

Burning a pp plus an immediate action to gain a +4 bonus to saves is all right, but not exactly incredible. It still has a cost and that cost tends to come right out of the pp one would be useing for other things. I say it isnt incredible becuase, generally speaking, the dwarf version is better and the halflings version is equivalent.

So, a psion already has the potential to blow through his points incredibly fast. He really has to take care to spread out. Now, with this race, he has to be even more careful. Not only do all of his class abilities take pp but so do his racial abilities. The drain is getting very high now.

That is why I said they were fine as is. The abilities are nice but they are not without cost, and that cost can be very, very high indeed.

That ability only gets better if you're a psion, and can afford to use it twice more a day. Heck, you could play an elan fighter and pick up a feat to gain a few extra pps a day, and effectively use it as much as you need to each day.

If someone wants to play an elan fighter and burn feats to gain pp just to use his racial abilities then more power to him. I highly doubt it will even be a bump on the radar for 'overpowered'. He would still be better off being a dwarf if he was after the save bonus.

Sure, you may not use it as standard-operating-proceedure, but if you only have 20 hp left and get hit for 31, you're going to be able to stay alive, whereas a non-elan is toast.

Of course, if you were some other race then that other race has other benefits which may have kept you alive also, or saved you in some other way. Opportunity cost.

Note, if the character had been a halfling then maybe that attack would have missed anyway. The halfling didnt have to pay any pp, didnt have to use an action, didnt have to give anything up (or have left over, too bad for you if you already used your immediate action or swift action this round), and is still alive also.

When it comes down to it, even the gnomes, 'speak with small burrowing creatures' ability might save your life, that doesnt make it overpowered.

If by "several other people" you mean Mr. Kaze

No, I was talking about the multitude of other threads about the elan actually. James has quite a bit of experience with them as well. He had two in the same party, one almost never used any of his abilities over the course of several levels, the other used them all the time. The first mainly played the regular mage type, the second always ran into combat. The first was actually able to contribute more, the second was always running out of pp.

Tradeoffs.

Again, so long as a DM is satisfied with the dwarf, the elan isn't out of line. But it's definitely playing on the strong side of the spread.

Then, as the dwarf is core, as I said in the first post they are fine as is. Which part of the 'spread' they are on is irrelevant as it is too compaign dependant and mostly up to personal taste (I would rather have an always active lesser bonus than a situational, maybe get to use it, slightly higher bonus)

 

[Scion]

In order to simplify a bit though.

At low levels the pp costs for the elans abilities are high, but people tend not to care as much about swift/immediate actions (although many psionic powers use swift/immeditate actions even at low levels).

At higher levels the pp cost is low for the +4 save (although it still cuts into what can be done for the day, as the numbers from the other thread show), while the dr cost is still very high, but here the action cost is much higher. Many powers that are useful will cost a swift/immediate action. Lots of buffs allow it, quicken power becomes useful, and there are a lot of 'save me now!' powers that can be taken which rival or beat the elans racial abilities.

All in all, at low levels the pp cost is high which makes them hard to use, at higher levels the action cost is high and makes them hard to use. Anytime there is an opportunity to use them but it isnt (because you used something else, or need to save the pp, or have to save the action, or whatever) means that for that period of time you dont really have any racial abilities.

The cost for the effects averages out to always be high in some regard. Whereas other races get their racial abilities effectively all of the time that they are useful.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I tend to agree with Scion.

Yes, Elan looks better than, say, Human if you are playing a Psionic character. But that is not saying much.

In general, an array of defensive abilities at the cost of offense is rarely a balance problem. Most people would say the Cleric class is the most powerful when you are auditing abilities, but how many people complain about the Cleric being too powerful in actual play? Haven't heard it yet.

There is the potential for an Elan to survive a mountain falling on him from the clear blue sky. Good. That is more humorous than a problem.

By the time that a Psionic character has a lot of pp to burn on these class abilities, he will be wanting to use swift actions. To my mind, half the point of being a Psion is to have the ability to really burn through your pp's so you can toss a power and a swift power each and every round when in a tough fight.

 

[Staffan]

By the way, why the heck are elans aberrations? According to the MM, that implies a bizarre physiology or an alien mindset. Elan look exactly like humans and think exactly like them, too. Weird.

Well, they're made from solidified psionic energy or something like that. That's a pretty weird physiology.

 

[Kelleris]

Really? I thought they were simply linked to a psionic entity of some sort. Besides, aberrations tend to look visibly odd. Just being made of energy wouldn't necessarily put you out of the monstrous humanoid zone, assuming you still pretty much function like a humanoid creature.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The description of Elan nature is purposely vague and mysterious.

I would explain the race as a kind of soul-like energy grafted symbyotically onto an already existing adult body. It is a bit like the Trill from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 except it is a pure psychic phenomena instead of having a worm installed into your gut, and there is no necessity to change hosts. Elans has potentially unlimited lifespans.

From the XPH: "Newly created elans retain the basic memories and personalities of the previous human lives, but lose all their previous class levels, skills, and other characteristics; a newly created elan is a 1st-level character, free to reinvent himself as a member of his new race."

That sounds like an aberration to me.