Elder Evils

[Derren]

I am not impressed by the sample Elder Evils. Each has glaring weaknesses and considering that they want to destroy the world are much too weak. They could never stand against the inhabitants of the world (Great Wyrms, etc.).
But when the Elder Evils would be so strong so that they would actually hard to fend of the PCs would have no chance. Thats why such "World destroying monsters" don't work.

The signs, at least the one of the Atropus, is also not very well thought out. It raises undead. But as those undead are mindless and uncontrolled they are no threat to anyone except those who rise inside or near a city. When you manage to fend those off and to clear the area you "made it" as the other undead in the wilderness won't bother you if you leave them alone. And flying adventurers can destroy those undead easily so after taking care of the sign the undead problem can be resolved much easier than it was probably intended to be.

 

[robertliguori]

As an idea mine for general villains and monsters, I like the looks of Elder Evils. But playing it straight?

L20-Ranger: "Look! Something in the sky is different!"
L20-Cleric: "Uh, can you be more specific, big R? Some of us don't have Spot checks in the high forties."
L20-Ranger: "There's a bit of rock out in space traveling towards the Lands!"
L20-Diviner: "Yes, 20-R, there are lots of bits of rock in space-"
L20-Ranger: "This one's shaped like a face and is covered with swarming undead."
L20-Cleric: "...You can see that from here?"
L20-Ranger: "Yeah. Custom magic items. Oh, look, there's a big one."
L20-Bard: "Aha! I've heard songs and stories about Atropus!"
L20-Cleric: "Who?"
L20-Bard: "The thing you're talking about. I picked it up from context. Bardic knowledge is neat when it's functionally indistinguishable from omniscience!"

*****

L20-Paladin: "OK, we've got scrolls of Hallow, scrolls of Forbiddance, scrolls of Sunburst, and our metamagiced Storm-of-Vengeance item as a fallback. Archers, you all have your Oathbows and your stacks of Undead Bane arrows of Slay Undead? OK! Final check, people! Buffing starts in two hours! Art, start the clock!"
L20-Artificer: *sets countdown clock*
L20-Paladin: "Enchie, how are your boys?"
L20-Enchanter: "Well, Pal, beholders aren't really 'boys' as such. More like like reality-defying abominations that have nothing so familiar about them as gender. But they're good. Isn't that right?"
Legion of Dominated Beholders: "We live to serve, master."
L20-Enchanter: "And I'm sure it will thrill you all to be part of protecting all living creatures, right? Said living creatures including yourselves, of course."
Legion of Dominated Beholders: "Yes, master."

*********

L20-Paladin: "And you're sure it will work?"
L20-Enchanter: "Art's done the math. 1000 cubic feet of matter per beholder per six seconds. Plus, even if it doesn't, this Atropus fellow is stepping on everyone's toes. Heck, Vilhelm the Impaler's been contributing to our magic-item fund, and he's a vampire himself! He's just a vampire that wants there to be living creatures around for him to snack on."
L20-Paladin: "It's good to see so much unity and cooperation, even if it did require such a dire threat. In the face of such great darkness..."
L20-Enchanter: "Heck, don't worry about it. If we fail, the dragons will sit up and take notice, and if they fail, then the Outer Planes will get involved."
L20-Paladin: "You mean the heavens?"
L20-Enchanter: "No, I mean the entire outer planes. You remember how those balors showed up and took out that spectre army that was threatening the world a few levels back because they were making everyone Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil? Well, same principle. We have everyone who wants there to be living creatures on our side, and that's a damn large numerical advantage, Pal. Now, come on. Let's go inspect the rest of the troops."

 

[kensanata]

I think I'll be using some Denizens of Avadnu as strange and incomprehensible evil beings instead...

 

[bento]

I might pick this up. I fiinished running B4 where my players ended the adventure by killing a CR 9 version of Zargon. I'll check out the write up on Zargon, and if its good, I might have him return when (or if) they make it to 20th level.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I looked through the preview. I didn't see a lot that I would use. I write my own EEs usually. If I want a fallback position, I already have the Galchutt from Chaositech.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I am not impressed by the sample Elder Evils. Each has glaring weaknesses and considering that they want to destroy the world are much too weak. They could never stand against the inhabitants of the world (Great Wyrms, etc.).

They specifically address this. Very few great wyrms have armies of cultists, especially ones that include high level characters.

 

[Derren]

They specifically address this. Very few great wyrms have armies of cultists, especially ones that include high level characters.

No army is needed.
The Atropus has the weakness of lacking a ranged attack or fly speed, meaning its totally helpless against flying adventurers. I don't have the stats for them but I assume that his Angel of Decay can fly,or? But can they also see invisible things? If not then a flying invisible great wyrm or adventuring party shouldn't have too much trouble with killing it.

The Worm that Walks is actually much harder to kill because it has a burrow speed which is the next best thing after total immunity and has spells (although a very limited selection). The laughable thing is that its ability to dissolve into worms is a big weakness as simply burrowing is always better. A single area effect spell in this state and the worm is dead.
But while the Worm doesn't have the big weakness of the Atropus its stats are too low to last very long against several flying heroes + dragon support. Its Sign does not help as none of those worms can fly.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

No army is needed.
The Atropus has the weakness of lacking a ranged attack or fly speed, meaning its totally helpless against flying adventurers. I don't have the stats for them but I assume that his Angel of Decay can fly,or? But can they also see invisible things? If not then a flying invisible great wyrm or adventuring party shouldn't have too much trouble with killing it.

The Worm that Walks is actually much harder to kill because it has a burrow speed which is the next best thing after total immunity and has spells (although a very limited selection). The laughable thing is that its ability to dissolve into worms is a big weakness as simply burrowing is always better. A single area effect spell in this state and the worm is dead.
But while the Worm doesn't have the big weakness of the Atropus its stats are too low to last very long against several flying heroes + dragon support. Its Sign does not help as none of those worms can fly.

Yeeeeah, they specifically aren't saying you should use these like "OK, one day, you're in a tavern and suddenly, a giant flying god's head crashes through the front door." These are set up to be used over the course of a campaign. Over 20 levels, an army of cultists can do an awful lot, like convincing the player characters to go and kill all the big threats in the world, like the great wyrms.

 

[Derren]

What has an army of cultists to do with convincing the PCs to do something? Also I wonder how many cultists all the good religion of the world (which don't want to see it destroyed) have? Quite a lot more.

As robertliguori said, the world has a damn large numerical advantage and considering how powerful some monsters and (N)PCs can become and how weak those Elder Evils are it has also the power advantage.

And a party which can kill all great wyrms and other powerful monsters of a world they can kill this Elder Evils blind with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[robertliguori]

Yeeeeah, they specifically aren't saying you should use these like "OK, one day, you're in a tavern and suddenly, a giant flying god's head crashes through the front door." These are set up to be used over the course of a campaign. Over 20 levels, an army of cultists can do an awful lot, like convincing the player characters to go and kill all the big threats in the world, like the great wyrms.

Except...here's the thing; Elder Evils leave signs of their existence. A character that can pull a DC 45 Knowledge check knows "Oh, look. Something's coming to eat the world." The kinds of characters that can make these checks are also the characters that can knock moons out of the sky with one hand or can throw out a Maximized Meteor Swarm followed by a Quickened Widened Transmute Rock to Lava and then laugh as your component worms go sizzle.

The problem with the idea of the elder evils is that horror is, in many cases, antithetical to proper military tactics. Elder Evils simply cannot be used properly in a universe with high-level characters; the very attributes that make level 6 and under characters fear them make the level 16s and over able to defeat them. Having dark, grandiose goals and a global reach which can't be escaped is scary. It also puts you on the hit list of every single entity that wants there to be a universe. Being a terrible mockery of a living, familiar form is scary. But familiar forms weren't just picked out of a hat; they are familiar because they work well, and messing with them means that you are now inefficient compared to a similar entity that focuses on power over fear. The Elder Evils are supposed to defy reality in new and horrible ways, but in D&D, reality is defied on a daily basis. The Elder Evils are supposed to be unknowable, unfightable horrors. For this to work, they need to be creatures of pure fiat, because if they have stats, they can be known, and they can be fought.