Elder Red Dragon preview is up

[Vaeron]

The red dragon was a source of a lot of disappointment the first time around... I know I wasn't alone in thinking- really? That's it? I really like the refinements WotC has made to their monster design, 4e is just getting better as it goes along.

Maybe frightful presence is being reserved for the Ancients - it would make sense. But even if it isn't, we DMs should feel free to just insert it in there however we like. And we can justify it by calling it an 'omission' and pointing at the MM1.

 

[Jack99]

Damn ninja from CPH!

Actually, I'm not sure if it is a rules change, so much as a clarification. I don't think that the intent has ever been that a solo could burn 2 AP in a single round.

Psst...

Don't ever tell that to my players

/ratbastarddm

 

[Mesh Hong]

Yeah, but with the right build, you can still lock it down. Even adding the +5 save into the mix, the Orbizard was still able to lock it down with a stun.

My suggestion would be to give the Red Dragon the ability to remove an effect (or just specifically Stun) by using an Action, either a Move Action or (if you wanted to be more restrictive) a Standard Action. This way, it still eats up MOST of its turn, but won't be perma-locked every round with broken builds.

I suppose that is one of the many issues with solo design. What might be perfectly reasonable for one group might be trivial to another and overwhelming to another.

Orbizards can be a real problem and they probably promote an arms race in the fact that they force a DM to continually beef up a creatures stun defence just to present a challenge.

But did you notice that my anti stun power stated the creature makes an unmodified saving throw? It doesn't matter what penalties it has stacked on it for the bonus saving throw, it always uses a straight role, giving it a 55% chance of success.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I thought orb wizards could only apply that penalty once. (And how does a wizard get a Wisdom of 20 anyway?)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Why not say that anyway? Doesn't need to be any mechanical tie-in for it. Plus, it's awesome.

But it certainly helps. As someone mentioned - if you can scare the players, it usually works better then when you just try to scare the character.

Dragonic Presence - Encounter
The Dragon flies towards you and unleashes a mighty roar. You become intimiately aware that this giant creature could kill you in a number of ways, not the least roasting you alive, swallowing you whole, or rending you to pieces...
Standard Action - Fear
Close burst 5
Target: All enemies in burst
Attack: Level +3 vs Will
Hit: The target is frightened. While frightened, the target takes a -5 penalty to all attacks against the Dragon and grants combat advantage. The frightened effect ends when the target hits the Dragon with an attack.
Miss: The target is frightened until the end of its next turn.

 

[MrMyth]

Hmm, can a solo use both APs in the same round? Obviously I realize that they can bypass the 1 AP per encounter rule, but I thought they still had to be in separate rounds? Now obviously, if the dragon stuns the wizard, moves next to him, AP's then attacks, he'll still get an extra action by using the last AP the next round since the wizard won't be able to do anything. Still pretty devastating even if the second round of attacks are not with CA.

Yeah, my preferred way to run MM1 dragons was to have them conserve resources until bloodied. It both makes sense (why would the Dragon even bother with true effort until shown the PCs are an actual threat?) and can really put the fear into the players - following a Bloodied Breath with Frightful Presence, an AP, and the next round, another AP and regular action... with a good chance of a second Breath somewhere in there.

Definitely puts the group on the defensive real fast - but also only at a point when the dragon is nearing death, so makes them feel like they really need to start working for their victory.

Anyway, in regards to the new dragon... I like the design in general. I don't think Frightful Presence needed to be removed, but do get why they did it. I don't think Stun needs to leave the game entirely, but I do like it extremely rare... but some want it gone for good, and that seems to be informing new design. I would have preferred if they instead just redesigned it, myself. On the other hand, I like Larrin's take on it - you don't need in-game fear if you can genuinely scare the players directly!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I wouldn't recommend a Frightful Presence that reduced the PCs chances to hit. Talk about adding grind to an encounter! I mean Stun is one thing, you lose a turn or two, but having a to-hit penalty for the whole encounter is WORSE. It is pretty much like just adding to the monster's defenses. Having a -5 that ends when the character hits? How is he going to hit? With -5 there isn't going to be much hitting going on! A -2 MIGHT work, but remember that debuffs like that tend to be steeper than they seem because the leader's buff/debuff effects usually need to hit as well, so that magnifies the actual disadvantage. It may not be a big deal if you were hitting on a 10 and now it is a 12, but often with Solos like this the party is already needing a 13 or 14 to hit.

Really, Stun is OK if it isn't (save ends) and is attached to an encounter power that is going to get used once or maybe twice at most. It really needs to be a pretty limited area or single target as well.

Personally I find that a minor action recharge on bloodied single target Stun until the end of your next turn power works fine. It doesn't get in the way of the monster doing other things, has a reasonably small effect on the battle and doesn't take the player out for too long. Yet it is still a fairly impressive effect and if the DM uses it cleverly it can be interesting. That doesn't map too well to the concept of a fear aura, but it is certainly possible to make a cool power like that.

[MENTION=23464]ranger[/MENTION]Wicket

Draconomicon (both volumes) have quite a lot of material on alternate dragon powers, lair design, horde contents, etc. So 4e actually has exactly what you want, you just have to delve into the more in-depth book on that subject. I really recommend Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons. While the monsters are designed with MM1 numbers a lot of them are quite well designed and there is a bunch of fun subsidiary material like Draconic Ritual Magic, etc. If you want to design some in-depth serious bad guy evil dragons it is a very nice book to pick up. The Metallic one is pretty interesting too, though it focuses more on RP aspects of these types of dragons since they're more likely to be associates of the PCs. I think the Chromatic book is overall the better one if you don't have both.

I think this new Red Dragon is good. Overall I didn't think the OLD one was bad though. Outside of the pumped stun-lock orbizard builds it could easily hold its own and dish out the damage. With MM3 numbers attached it is actually perfectly respectable if a little bit 'stock'.

Really though, a big dragon is a mega-badguy. I really don't see EVER using a 'book' dragon regardless of how it is designed without making some fairly heavy customizations. The new versions are a bit better chasis, but you're definitely always going to want to add your own custom leather seats.

 

[Stalker0]

I though torb wizards could only apply that penalty once. (And how does a wizard get a Wisdom of 20 anyway?)

18 in the stat + racial mod of course

In all seriousness, the original orb ability was so powerful that it was often considered worth it to have a lower int in favor of higher wisdom, as the saving throw penalty was much stronger than the attack roll.

Nowadays with all the nerfing of saving throw penalties I don't know if orb wizards are that dangerous to a dragon...but then again they are controllers, if they can't apply some conditions to the dragon then what's the point?

 

[Riastlin]

18 in the stat + racial mod of course

In all seriousness, the original orb ability was so powerful that it was often considered worth it to have a lower int in favor of higher wisdom, as the saving throw penalty was much stronger than the attack roll.

Nowadays with all the nerfing of saving throw penalties I don't know if orb wizards are that dangerous to a dragon...but then again they are controllers, if they can't apply some conditions to the dragon then what's the point?

And with Devas it was a relatively simple matter, 16 in Wis + 2 racial and then by 8th level you have 20 Wis, and can start with an 18 in Int (after racials) without too much difficulty as well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Maybe solos should get some special effect when they use an action point, kinda like with a paragon path?

As a starting point, I like this dragon, but to really put it over the top I'd like to see a) some effects other than damage, and b) a section on designing dragon lairs.

Good idea. And I fully agree. My Dire Pikachu comparison remains apt. I can (sort of) forgive it for the Red Dragon, but I'd really want to see the unique things that make the Red Dragon so iconic right there in the statblock. Greed doesn't come through with fire damage. Greed might come in the form of grasping claws, or a bribery skill challenge or some such.