Elemental Monk Fix
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
But have you or your players actually used it In A game? I have. It worked.
Of course.
GlassJaw
Hero
I'm of 2 minds with Four Elements:
1) Simple fix: Reduce the cost of most, if not all, of the abilities. Grant more abilities. Grant some cantrips.
2) Complete rework: Use the Tattooed Monk prestige class from 3ed as a template. Add abilities that don't require ki. Add abilities that aren't just spells. Perhaps allow the monk to specialize in one of 4 elements, or allow them to switch between them like the Storm Herald barbarian from XGtE.
1) Simple fix: Reduce the cost of most, if not all, of the abilities. Grant more abilities. Grant some cantrips.
2) Complete rework: Use the Tattooed Monk prestige class from 3ed as a template. Add abilities that don't require ki. Add abilities that aren't just spells. Perhaps allow the monk to specialize in one of 4 elements, or allow them to switch between them like the Storm Herald barbarian from XGtE.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
The problem is the cost of the abilities in relation to the action economy. You could make burning hands free ki for the monk and it would still rarely see use after level 5 because it takes his full action. So option one is a non starter. The real option 1 is what I’ve stated, making the elemental monk abilities take a bonus action instead of an action.
A complete rework is always a possibility but if you try the bonus action version you won’t find it necessary.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I’d prefer that as a new subclass, and is love to see it.
I like the 4 Elements monk as it is, conceptually.
One thing I could see is to have a stance of sorts, or rather several, that wok like the mystic disciplines. Fire Stance gets you what you describe above, and maybe a benefit with fire disciplines? Air Stance gets aspeed+jump boost, and when you Flurry your reach increases to 10ft, plus the air cantrip, etc
In general, I think the easiest fix for the elements monk is to reduce the ki cost of every ability by 1.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
On a different note, Burning Hands just isn’t very good, but is very thematic. So, sure, make that one ability a bonus action, or allow it as an action but explicitly allow the monk to flurry when using it.
But mostly, the elements monk gives up raw damage for versatility. That’s fine. It just isn’t at a reasonable cost as is. DPR isn’t the most important thing in the game. The problem with burning hands is that you’re giving up the action attacks, flurry attacks, opportunities for stunning strike, and paying too much ki for the privilege. All to cast an okay spell.
Give the subclass some cantrips, add some spells like Absorb Elements and other elemental evil spells, and make the spells cost 1 ki per level instead of 1+1/level, and the class functions really well. I’ve played it that way. It stands up next to a Shadow Monk or Open Hand monk, but does very different things than either.
But mostly, the elements monk gives up raw damage for versatility. That’s fine. It just isn’t at a reasonable cost as is. DPR isn’t the most important thing in the game. The problem with burning hands is that you’re giving up the action attacks, flurry attacks, opportunities for stunning strike, and paying too much ki for the privilege. All to cast an okay spell.
Give the subclass some cantrips, add some spells like Absorb Elements and other elemental evil spells, and make the spells cost 1 ki per level instead of 1+1/level, and the class functions really well. I’ve played it that way. It stands up next to a Shadow Monk or Open Hand monk, but does very different things than either.
Xeviat
Hero
I wanted to come in with a little bit of math.
Here's how much damage flurry of blows can do at the different levels with your action+bonus action and 1 ki; keep in mind, misses are 0 damage (this monk starts with 16 dex and increases at 4th and 8th):
3rd: 16.5
4th: 19.5
5th: 30
8th: 34
11th: 38
17th: 42
Burning hands deals 10.5 damage for 2 ki, and you still have your bonus action for other uses (not a big deal, though). Burning hands does damage on a miss. Maybe at 3rd level, against 2 or more targets, it's a good deal, but after that it's really bad. A high level monk does equivalent damage per attack at a point, and can move between them.
The monk's ki points are incredibly close to the amount of spell points a 1/2 caster would have, divided by 3 since they get short rest recovery and days are balanced around 2 short rests. The Elemental Monk's max ki value is also equivalent to spell point costs for every level, except it doesn't have the 3rd level increase. So I don't disagree with the costs for the Elemental Monk's effects, just the action.
1 ki and a bonus action gives 2 attacks for 11 damage at 3rd level. Burning hands deals 10.5 damage (save half) for 2 ki. Against 2 targets, that's equal. Against more, it's gravy. That would be fine. Again, this is exactly the 6th level ability for the Sun Soul Monk.
I suppose if you gave that to the elemental monk, then the Sun Soul Monk is losing some uniqueness and may need some extra options. But when you think of the Monk as a half-caster, then the Sun Soul Monk only giving 1 cantrip and then like 7 spells known, it is nothing compared to Paladin subclasses that get extra spells known AND other abilities.
That's why the Way of the Four Elements monk feels week. Getting bonus action spells would make it feel good.
Here's how much damage flurry of blows can do at the different levels with your action+bonus action and 1 ki; keep in mind, misses are 0 damage (this monk starts with 16 dex and increases at 4th and 8th):
3rd: 16.5
4th: 19.5
5th: 30
8th: 34
11th: 38
17th: 42
Burning hands deals 10.5 damage for 2 ki, and you still have your bonus action for other uses (not a big deal, though). Burning hands does damage on a miss. Maybe at 3rd level, against 2 or more targets, it's a good deal, but after that it's really bad. A high level monk does equivalent damage per attack at a point, and can move between them.
The monk's ki points are incredibly close to the amount of spell points a 1/2 caster would have, divided by 3 since they get short rest recovery and days are balanced around 2 short rests. The Elemental Monk's max ki value is also equivalent to spell point costs for every level, except it doesn't have the 3rd level increase. So I don't disagree with the costs for the Elemental Monk's effects, just the action.
1 ki and a bonus action gives 2 attacks for 11 damage at 3rd level. Burning hands deals 10.5 damage (save half) for 2 ki. Against 2 targets, that's equal. Against more, it's gravy. That would be fine. Again, this is exactly the 6th level ability for the Sun Soul Monk.
I suppose if you gave that to the elemental monk, then the Sun Soul Monk is losing some uniqueness and may need some extra options. But when you think of the Monk as a half-caster, then the Sun Soul Monk only giving 1 cantrip and then like 7 spells known, it is nothing compared to Paladin subclasses that get extra spells known AND other abilities.
That's why the Way of the Four Elements monk feels week. Getting bonus action spells would make it feel good.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
How does this house rule stack up to the Way of the Four Elements Remastered (reformatted version)?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view
Do you think the house rule is better, worse, or just different than the variant subclass?
I'm considering which option to allow to my players (maybe I'll allow them the choice).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view
Do you think the house rule is better, worse, or just different than the variant subclass?
I'm considering which option to allow to my players (maybe I'll allow them the choice).
