Elemental Planes Killed

[Desdichado]

Now, I'm confused. Do people care about this sacred cow, or don't they? Obviously, people think we already have something worth caring about or this thread wouldn't exist.

I'm guessing about four people care about this sacred cow. The rest of the D&D playing population think this is a great idea, and are arguing over and over again with the four people, mostly represented by you.

 

[Desdichado]

So, I don't care about the current cosmology one iota, other than how other system elements imply its structure. On the other hand, I care quite a bit about the inclusion of new ideas and the possibility of sourcebooks from which I may get use. The former may impede the latter by just taking up word count.

OK, I take it back. I do care in that sense. I think the idea of the plane of fire (to use one example) is interesting. I think the status quo execution of it is lacking. I care in the sense that I'm glad to see the designers addressing the execution in a way to make the idea viable again. Because it always was a decent idea, just really, really badly managed.

 

[Desdichado]

I also wave the BS flag. First of all you need to be pretty high level to get to the outer planes (I exclude Planescape which is a specific campaign world). We know the current sweet spot of DND is not typically past 12th level and many groups quit playing after this. Therefore I would argue most groups or players have not even had the opportunity to travel to the elemental planes. I would argue that most people posting haven't even attempted to adventure in them.

Well, that's perhaps a chicken and egg thing. In any case, the paradigm that "the planes (a word which I passionately hate, as a matter of fact, as an obvious and bizarre D&Dism) is only appopriate for high level adventurers---what makes that paradigm so special? Personally, I think it's kinda lousy. There's a lot of interesting ideas in the planes, but I can't use 'em because I depise high level play as unfun and tedious.

See, if I were a designer, this kind of systemic problem would be one of my top priorities to find and fix.

 

[Celebrim]

See, if I were a designer, this kind of systemic problem would be one of my top priorities to find and fix.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this but, fixing high level play so that it plays as well as low level play (less tedium, better balance) and yet is at the same time different than low level play rather than just bigger numbers is going to be quite a challenge.

At this time, I've not seen alot of evidence that the problems with high level play will be seriously addressed in a way that will make you happy. In any event, if they are, or if they are not, the fix won't involve changing the elemental planes.

I think that I may well be in the minority (I usually am on just about everything) but I hardly think I'm the only one that doesn't care particularly for getting lots of fluff changes with the new edition.

 

[gizmo33]

I think that I may well be in the minority (I usually am on just about everything) but I hardly think I'm the only one that doesn't care particularly for getting lots of fluff changes with the new edition.

I'm not much interested in fluff changes either way in 4E. I would prefer that they keep the rules as core rules, and the structure of outer planes should be considered a setting specific thing. I have umpteen descriptions of the Great Wheel in various books and I don't need another one. If you must posit a dimension of some kind in the core rules, for example a plane where fire creatures come from, then try to be as generic about it as possible.

 

[see]

I am not being disingenuous. The "standard D&D cosmology" as you describe is a Greyhawk thing,

Thus the "at least you should". Apparently you're just displaying ignorance. The following is a quote from the AD&D 1e Player's Handbook (published 1978):

APPENDIX IV: THE KNOWN PLANES OF EXISTENCE

There exist and infinite number of parallel universes and planes of existence in the fantastic "multiverse" of ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. All of these "worlds" co-exist, but how "real" each is is depends entirely upon the development of each by the campaign referee. The chart and explanations which follow show only the various planes tied to that of normal existence. The parallel universes are not shown, and their existence might or might not be actual.

Not, you'll note, the multiverse of Greyhawk, but the multiverse of AD&D.

Similarly, there's the AD&D 1e Deities & Demigods (published 1980), which has, Appendix 1: The Known Planes of Existence. The first paragraph is identical to the above quote. This book placed fifteen distinct pantheons on that set of planes, including three literary pantheons (the Cthulhu, Melibonian, and Newhon gods), but no Greyhawk gods.

Come October 1981, and in Dragon the deities of the Forgotten Realms are presented for the first time — all assigned homes in the planes of the multiverse of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, as presented in the Player's Handbook and Deities & Demigods. And this is when the Forgotten Realms are still just Ed Greenwood's home campaign; TSR doesn't buy it for another five years.

Lots of references to the AD&D multiverse in the Monster Manual (1977), Fiend Folio (1981), and Monster Manual II (1983), of course, which were all generic AD&D books.

Then there was the 1987 Manual of the Planes, which covered the AD&D multiverse in detail -- but only included Deities & Demigods' historical pantheons and monster gods, ignoring all Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and literary-pantheon gods. A generic AD&D supplement, with no campaign-specific material.

These same planes are then presented on pages 131-132 of the 2nd edition Dungeon Master's Guide (1989), which treats them as the cosmology for the entire AD&D game, not any specific campaign. In fact, the (single) AD&D multiverse is given as the explanation as to how all the possible "world-settings" that campaigns can exist in can be accomodated.

So, no, the Great Wheel is historically not a "Greyhawk" cosmology; it was the common, standard cosmology for all AD&D for 23 years. Not everyone used it in their games, but that was the equivalent of house rules or campaign-speific variation (like Dragonlance not using the standard wizard class); standard AD&D included the standard cosmology.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

"the planes (a word which I passionately hate, as a matter of fact, as an obvious and bizarre D&Dism)

I think it's actually a 1970sism.

"Hey, man, take this and raise your consciousness to a higher plane of awareness."

Gygax = Hippie!

 

[GVDammerung]

I'm guessing about four people care about this sacred cow. The rest of the D&D playing population think this is a great idea, and are arguing over and over again with the four people, mostly represented by you.

I'm guessing this is "another brick in the . . ." mauseleum for 4e that Wotc is constructing. When all these fluff changes are added up, and then the rules changes that narrow the game through "roles" etc. are added in, I'm guessing 4e sales to the existing fanbase are going to look less well than 3x. Its like asking someone used to comfortable fit clothing to start wearing body suits - 4e constricts both players and DMs in how the game is played with the RAW (as far as it has been revealed at this point). I think the 4e "snuggy" is going to bind a fair number of people, just enough to hurt 4e's sales just enough to see it not meet sales expectations. At least when Hasbro disciplines Wotc for 4e's lackluster performance we will get 5e faster from a chasened Wotc. By itself changing the elemental planes is no huge deal but added to the tally - its one more brick. These announced changes add up; it is not a zero sum game.

 

[catsclaw227]

Similarly, there's the AD&D 1e Deities & Demigods (published 1980), which has, Appendix 1: The Known Planes of Existence. The first paragraph is identical to the above quote. This book placed fifteen distinct pantheons on that set of planes, including three literary pantheons (the Cthulhu, Melibonian, and Newhon gods), but no Greyhawk gods.

Come October 1981, and in Dragon the deities of the Forgotten Realms are presented for the first time — all assigned homes in the planes of the multiverse of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, as presented in the Player's Handbook and Deities & Demigods. And this is when the Forgotten Realms are still just Ed Greenwood's home campaign; TSR doesn't buy it for another five years.

Lots of references to the AD&D multiverse in the Monster Manual (1977), Fiend Folio (1981), and Monster Manual II (1983), of course, which were all generic AD&D books.

Then there was the 1987 Manual of the Planes, which covered the AD&D multiverse in detail -- but only included Deities & Demigods' historical pantheons and monster gods, ignoring all Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and literary-pantheon gods. A generic AD&D supplement, with no campaign-specific material.

These same planes are then presented on pages 131-132 of the 2nd edition Dungeon Master's Guide (1989), which treats them as the cosmology for the entire AD&D game, not any specific campaign. In fact, the (single) AD&D multiverse is given as the explanation as to how all the possible "world-settings" that campaigns can exist in can be accomodated.

So, no, the Great Wheel is historically not a "Greyhawk" cosmology; it was the common, standard cosmology for all AD&D for 23 years. Not everyone used it in their games, but that was the equivalent of house rules or campaign-speific variation (like Dragonlance not using the standard wizard class); standard AD&D included the standard cosmology.

I have tendency to screw myself when I am trying to go by memory when I don't actually have the books in front of me. Maybe it's because we used the Newhon and Melnibonean Mythos and didn't use the great wheel that I failed to read those paragraphs. I consider myself corrected on the facts.

I suppose that I have been using so many different cosmologes in different campaigns that the lines about what is "official" gets blurred in my mind.

Either way, I don't think that these re-imaginings of the planes is that world-shaking.

 

[catsclaw227]

I'm guessing this is "another brick in the . . ." mauseleum for 4e that Wotc is constructing. When all these fluff changes are added up, and then the rules changes that narrow the game through "roles" etc. are added in, I'm guessing 4e sales to the existing fanbase are going to look less well than 3x. Its like asking someone used to comfortable fit clothing to start wearing body suits - 4e constricts both players and DMs in how the game is played with the RAW (as far as it has been revealed at this point). I think the 4e "snuggy" is going to bind a fair number of people, just enough to hurt 4e's sales just enough to see it not meet sales expectations. At least when Hasbro disciplines Wotc for 4e's lackluster performance we will get 5e faster from a chasened Wotc. By itself changing the elemental planes is no huge deal but added to the tally - its one more brick. These announced changes add up; it is not a zero sum game.

I cannot either agree nor disagree with you until I have actually seen and read the 4e PHB, DMG and MM. I don't understand how these statements can be made with any accuracy until the rules come out.