D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Divine2021]

I find your response to read as passive aggressive sarcasm. If that's not your intent, I apologize, but that is how I am reacting to it. I try to make my points in as clear language as possible so I am less likely to be misunderstood.

I am not policing anything. I am stating my opinions. IMO, trying to coerce players to make their characters typical is not good. That's my whole thesis.

And I think that, as the world-building DM, you can absolutely create a world where most elves are typically X, while not trying to coerce the player's elf to be X. I don't think those are antithetical premises. In fact, I think letting players know how most elves typically are, will give the players ideas for how to play with or against that stereotype. Just as Bilbo was the hobbit who went on an adventure, maybe their elf is the one who embraces their inner barbarian.

It isn’t passive aggressive, and if you read it that way, I apologize as that was not my intent. I’m glad you have discovered what works for you and that you have a solid conception of what you don’t like. Equally, I’m solid on what works for me and my table. To each their own; I don’t have any desire to argue with strangers on the internet about preferred preferences when it comes to make pretend games. Sharing, sure. Arguing, no.

 

[Minigiant]

The real issue is..

The +2 to DEX is not representative of a D&D elf if D&D elves are naturally Dexterous as the lore describes. +2 DEX isn't much mechanically.
+6 to DEX is.

The problem is representing the various races mositing in Ability Sore Adjustments would 100% lead to them being typecasted and players only running munckining power builds.

If Elves have +6 DEX, +2 INT, and -4 CON, the only elves you'd see played are powergamed bladesinger wizards and EK fighters.

We saw that in 3e.

So we have 4 choices.

1. Minor fixed ASIs for show
2. Minor fixed ASIs true to lore but so harsh only powergamers use these races
3. Flexible ASIs and mechanical power shifted to nonASI traits
4. Flexible ASIs and mechanical power lessened to nonASI traits and elves are pointy eared humans.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not sure I follow. I don't think you should have preset stat modifiers based on species. That's my whole point. Letting players assign the modifiers themselves, based on their character concept, is optimal for me.

I just think encouraging player characters to be typical is boring and contrary to what good fiction does. Interesting characters are always outliers.

The thing is, they will end up just being typical in another way. Every barbarian has same str, every wizard the same int etc. Every halfling that needs strength being just as strong as a strong human really isn't that interesting. Halflings being small and physically weak and thus having to do things differently is more interesting to me.

I feel that if we are having different sapient fantasy species, being a different species should actually matter. It should mechanically matter too. If it doesn't, we can just have human-only setting. Game of Thrones worked fine. (Well, you know what I mean...)

And I get your concerns about balance and pushing certain species towards specific classes. That is not ideal either. Balance is a secondary concern to me, but it still matters. Like I have said before, the issue really is that classes are too SAD. The optimal choice is almost always to max your main stat. I wish it was not so, it leads to cookie cutter stats even aside the species issue. Most martial classes actually do this relatively well, though. You can choose to use dex or str,, and as a consequence will fight somewhat differently (though it could be more different.) So even if halflings were not as strong as humans you can still be an effective combatant as a halfling.

 

[Scribe]

The problem is representing the various races mositing in Ability Sore Adjustments would 100% lead to them being typecasted and players only running munckining power builds.

This both is not, and never has been, true.

 

[Remathilis]

again easy

Age, size, dark vision, senses, fey ancestry, and trance are the same.

Then you have about a half feat worth of power to make the subspecies culture.

Athasian elves get bonus speed and conceal thoughts
Valley Elves and Star Elves are high elves

Etc etc

Every one of those could be modelled via a cultural Background, especially is using High Elf base -You know one cantrip of your choice - all Elfs are medium sized (even 7 foot tall Athasian elfs) and the difference are cultural/magical not inherent.

Well crap. I guess every elf CAN just be made using the PHB and we don't need unique racial traits for them.

I imagine the Dark Sun players will be surprised when they're told "just use the PHB stats and pick longstrider as your free spell"

 

[Divine2021]

The real issue is..

The +2 to DEX is not representative of a D&D elf if D&D elves are naturally Dexterous as the lore describes. +2 DEX isn't much mechanically.
+6 to DEX is.

The problem is representing the various races mositing in Ability Sore Adjustments would 100% lead to them being typecasted and players only running munckining power builds.

If Elves have +6 DEX, +2 INT, and -4 CON, the only elves you'd see played are powergamed bladesinger wizards and EK fighters.

We saw that in 3e.

So we have 4 choices.

1. Minor fixed ASIs for show
2. Minor fixed ASIs true to lore but so harsh only powergamers use these races
3. Flexible ASIs and mechanical power shifted to nonASI traits
4. Flexible ASIs and mechanical power lessened to nonASI traits and elves are pointy eared humans.

Heck yea, give me the plus 6! I want the god elves!

 

[Minigiant]

This both is not, and never has been, true.

Yeah it would .

people didn't play minotaur wizard in 3e for a reason.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The real issue is..

The +2 to DEX is not representative of a D&D elf if D&D elves are naturally Dexterous as the lore describes. +2 DEX isn't much mechanically.
+6 to DEX is.

It is weird how +2 is too little to make a difference, yet not having it seems to be such a dealbreaker.

 

[Divine2021]

Yeah it would .

people didn't play minotaur wizard in 3e for a reason.

I have in 5e with Kobold Press’ Minotaurs. It was mad fun!

 

[Remathilis]

The thing is, they will end up just being typical in another way. Every barbarian has same str, every wizard the same int etc. Every halfling that needs strength being just as strong as a strong human really isn't that interesting. Halflings being small and physically weak and thus having to do things differently is more interesting to me.

This is absolutely the problem of D&D since AD&D marrying class competency to ability scores. Sever that link so that your ability scores do not have as much impact on class function, and you'll see barbarians with different strengths or wizards with different Int.