D&D General elf definition semantic shenanigans

[Crimson Longinus]

You're welcome not to like culture mechanics. I do and find them quite useful; Level Up's origin system is one of my favorite things about it. I object to you referring to it as racist.

I don't know what it does or how it is implemented. My comments were primarily about some Middle-Earth system, that seemed to give different mechanics to different specific named human cultures or ethnicities. That to me seemed essentialist in rather problematic manner, and not something I would want to be widely implemented.

 

[Micah Sweet]

but that would require classes having a strong base competency or balancing ability score but having more inherent traits.

But 5 years I was yelled at here for merely suggesting that a fighter attack with Intelligence or Charisma by attacking with wit and feints.

I think that could totally work. I'm sorry people yelled at you

 

[Minigiant]

See, I don't want Intelligence or Charisma replacing Strength as an attacking stat. I was Strength to matter LESS to a fighter so they don't feel that putting a higher score in Int or Cha instead of Strength won't be as detrimental.

Basic D&D kinda accomplished this. Strength was important to fighters, but a max +3 to hit/damage wasn't as big a draw as it would be later. Dex helped AC and ranged attacks, but it provided no bonus to Thief Skills. Intelligence and Wisdom did not affect spellcasting in the least. All having a high score really granted was a 5% or 10% boost to XP. All the other bonus's ability scores provided (melee, ranged, AC, Hp, skills/languages, etc) are universally useful to all characters.

Sadly, AD&D broke this and it's been broken ever since.

+3 to hit/damage didn't matter because you had to be lucky or cheat to get an 18 STR.

Again the crux is "Do D&D fans want elves to have +2 Dex for show or for mechanical power?"

The fandom hem and haw about it because few want to be truthful or admit to the consequences of their desires.

 

[Yaarel]

For my part, recognizing that I prefer to fold halflings and gnomes together into a combined "hinnfolk" race:

This works really well for Forest Gnomes, but the Rock Gnomes of traditional D&D don't do this (they're much more like Dwarves).

I'd kill the gnomes and divide their stuff among halflings and dwarves. Halflings can get hippy animal friendship stuff and dwarves can get the tinkering. I think dwarves in particular would benefit from this; they're conceptually very narrow.

I agree, where there are three, there should probably be two.

• The Dwarf/Gnome gets the Elemental Earth, Wilderness, and Magi-Tech flavor.
• The Halfling/Gnome gets the Home, Farm Animals, and Non-Ambitious Carefree flavor.

I like the Gnome, so I want to see it remain. But I am ok with reorganizing its character concepts elsewhere. Because I like the Gnome, it didnt occur to me for it to be the one that splits up. Yet this seems like a fruitful exploration.


Currently, in the Playtest Origins:

Gnome
(Playtest has two Gnome "lineages".)
Rock Gnome ≈ Tinker Gnome = Dwarf + Gnome
Forest Gnome ≈ "Farm" Gnome (with animal livestock) = Halfling + Gnome

Halfling = Lightfoot Halfling ≈ Farm "Luck" Halfling
(Playtest only has one kind of Halfling. But 2014 actually says the Stout have "dwarven blood", namely are a Half-Race sotospeak.)
• Stout = Halfling-Dwarf multispecies
• Tallfellow = "Urban Nomad" Halfling-Human-Elf multispecies

Dwarf = Elemental Earth + "Tinker" (Toolsets)
(Playtest only has one kind of Dwarf.)


Reorganization:

Dwarf = Elemental Earth + Tinker/Rock Gnome
Halfling = Luck + Brave + Nonambition + Home + Farm/Forest Animals

It is a clean conceptual split.
• Halfling is a nickname for the "house sprite" "gnome" of various reallife folkbelief (hob, brownie, tomte, kobold, etcetera).
• The Dwarf pretty much stays the Dwarf, but its magitech becomes more apparent.

Meanwhile, the "Stout" is actually a nickname for a mixed-ancestry Dwarf-Halfling multispecies (half race) person, the "Tallfellow" a nickname for a Halfling-Human multispecies, and a "Mul" a nickname for a Dwarf-Human multispecies. Note, some Tallfellows derive from Halfling citizens of cities founded by Human-and-Elf, thus also have some elven blood as well as human. In some regions, Tallfellows tend to be urban nomads, travelling seasonally from town to town, by wagon or boat.


A note on the Dwarf Tinker. I like the concept, but am less happy with the mechanics that the Playtest Origins lists. There, the Dwarf Forgewise is strictly a learnable toolset proficiency and the Gnome Rock is strictly two learnable cantrips. Instead of both, I would rather say, the Forgewise/Tinker trait is:

Forgewise Tinker. You exhibit innate affinity with creating works of elemental Earth. You have an Advantage to any ability checks that rely on an understanding of soil, rock, crystal, metal, and terrain, such as for the Smith toolset or Jeweler toolset to craft items, the Survival skill to interpret and navigate terrains, and the Nature skill to employ the elemental properties of Earth and the structural engineering of mineral construction materials.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure

But the power and utility you get for +2 DEX as a cleric pales in comparison from what youget from +1 WIS by a large mount.

So the mechanic would nudge you to a +2DEX, +1 WIS wood elf.

Sure. I think elves should have +2 dex and +1 to wis, int or cha, your choice. Once we fix the barbarian to work with dex builds too, that would work OK with any class, would fit elves, and still maintains their natural agility. And once we combine this with a choice of couple of cantrips or other traits, we can do away with elven subraces, and have one flexible elven species.

It would take +4 or +6 to make a nonprimary score to matter equally a +2 to a primary score. But if races had +4s and +6s, people will....

...want to put them in their class primary scores.

Yeah, sure. And this actually gets to what I have been saying about stats even aside the species issue. In point buy the main score of your class should cost more. Then there might be an actual choice between maxing it or getting a ton of other stats. Floating ASI that you always place in your main score actually does the opposite of this, making your main score effectively cheaper.

 

[cranberry]

Well, per the my DM at a recent game, elves are apparently non-binary

 

[CreamCloud0]

personally i feel that setting automatic set minimum values for certain stats would be a good direction to go, though i'd pair it with point buy as default stat generating method, your elf or halfling has 14 dex as their starting base rather than the 8 they have on their other stats and that's 7 'extra' points to spend, meaning you've got a +2 dex modifier without a cost and can invest those points elsewhere or can use them bump it even higher at an increasingly higher point cost (i'd bump the pointbuy cap for the associated stat at the same time)

though i'm sure some people would take grievance at the idea i'm taking away their ability to play an 8 CON dwarf or whatnot.

 

[Remathilis]

+3 to hit/damage didn't matter because you had to be lucky or cheat to get an 18 STR.

Again the crux is "Do D&D fans want elves to have +2 Dex for show or for mechanical power?"

The fandom hem and haw about it because few want to be truthful or admit to the consequences of their desires.

The assumption is flawed because it assumes +2 Dex is inherent to elven identity. It can't be if you assume one set of stats encompass every possible species, subspecies, and culture of elves in D&D. It's folly to think that. If nothing else, Elves should have floating ASI to mimic the fact there are some many different permutations of elf in the multiverse it's impossible to boil them down to just "quick." You want a world where elves are consistently quick? Get rid of most of those elven subtypes and cultures and focus deeply on a small subset of elven types and cultures from a single setting.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

personally i feel that setting automatic set minimum values for certain stats would be a good direction to go, though i'd pair it with point buy as default stat generating method, your elf or halfling has 14 dex as their starting base rather than the 8 they have on their other stats and that's 7 'extra' points to spend, meaning you've got a +2 dex modifier without a cost and can invest those points elsewhere or can use them bump it even higher at an increasingly higher point cost (i'd bump the pointbuy cap for the associated stat at the same time)

though i'm sure some people would take grievance at the idea i'm taking away their ability to play an 8 CON dwarf or whatnot.

This is kinda how my stat assignment and species houserules work. It has maximums and minimums, but not actual ASIs.

 

[Clint_L]

Sure. I think elves should have +2 dex and +1 to wis, int or cha, your choice. Once we fix the barbarian to work with dex builds too, that would work OK with any class, would fit elves, and still maintains their natural agility.

But why do you want to encourage your players to make a typical elf? With the new system they can, if they want - they can opt to put +2 into dex. But they're not required. They can be an atypical elf without being penalized for it.

The new system just gives them more options for their imagination, by not effectively telling them that they're doing it wrong. It takes nothing away, it just adds options for player characters, specifically.