Elf lifespan, XP, level limit issues...
- Thread starter (Psi)SeveredHead
- Start date
Larcen
Explorer
Please forgive my unothodox way of responding to all the messages posted so far. I did not even know this thread was started until today. (I rarely go online on weekends anymore.) There was a lot said, so I simply picked various quotes to respond to. If you need to know who said what, please do a string search. Sorry.
... Taking over the world entails war, war entails risk. With a low reproduction and growth rate, elves can't afford many extended battles of attrition.
No, there are other ways to take over the world. You can do so thru manipulation, secrecy, politics, diplomacy and control. All things the elves with their long life span should excel at.
Finally, the typical alignment of elves is chaotic good. To me, that means that they aren't real keen on imposing their own governance on others.
This is the best argument, IMHO. They believe too strongly in freedom and individuality to impose their will on other races. Who they feel will burn out over time anyway if they do not live in harmony with others and nature. Let's hope they are not wrong.
There are a host of reasons that elves would not dominate the world. To me, that's just an excuse for an outdated mechanic, and an excuse that doesn't bear much scrutiny.
My gripe over the removal of the level-limit mechanic was not because elves would soon rule the world. I stated in the original thread that the problem was that this would cause 90th level elves walking around. Whether they wanted to rule the world or not.
I rule that the extended lifespans are due in part to regenerating brain tissue (humans don't do this so well in RL, neither do other mammals). So while the elves have a lot of time to learn things, they also constantly have to re-study the basics. Humans don't have to do that, but then they die a lot sooner.
This is so wacky, it might even make sense.
In my game, all elves are at least 10th level because of all the challenges they've gone through over the years (and years).
Even the elven children? Also, with no level limits, why stop at 10th? I know you said "at least" but again, if they live so long, why only 10th? Heck, taken to the extreme, I would go so far as to say that the elves could have entire universities based on getting you to 20th level without even having to leave the safetly of home. Remember, they are very civilized and believe in art and education.
Why don't they rule the world? Because they're elves, not humans. They don't think and act like humans do.
Again, I like this one. Must be a human trait to want to rule the world.
Long lifespan of the elves makes them real laid back when it comes to doing a lot of things. They have hundreds if not thousands of years to experience life, so they are naturally not in a great hurry to do so...... Now take this example and apply it to elves. Not only do they have a long time to max out their levels, they have the equivelant of many many human lifetimes! The advancement rate, relative to age, would be the same as humans, unless you have an anomoly elf (one with a very power hungry desires, etc).
Not that I disagreee with you, but the rules say otherwise. Elves advance just as fast as humans in the various classes.
Personally, under 3e stats I think Orcs should rule the world - they breed fast, and even the average 1st level orc is vastly more deadly than a 1st level human, dwarf or elf - +3 ATT & d12+3 dmg/hit means they can easily kill foes several levels higher.
For world domination, you need smarts, organization and planning. I can see orcs being used as grunts, but not running the show.
If orcs (or elves) don't rule your game world it's because of culture & GM fiat, not game rules.
Exactly. My point is that in 3E, without level limits for the long-lived races, the problem is magnified. You need more suspension of disbelief.
More in general, "ruling the world" isn't only a function of racial strength; it depends also (I'd say, mostly) on culture and economical/political conditions.
Which is again why orcs would make lousy candidates and the "older" races, like elves, should already be running the show...IF they wanted to.
As for Elven mages... Do remember that most "Mighty Archmages" are members of short-lived races who take short-cuts to gain high levels of magic power in a short time. Elven mages have the time to slowly develop their powers over time, and not take shortcuts.
Again, the game rules do not bare this out. My elven mage progresses just as fast as your human one does. And by rights, when your wizard is dead and buried of old age, mine would still be climbing the XP charts. I still say exponential XPs, like pre-3E, are the best way to go here to help eleviate this problem.
The same goes for other Elven characters: When you're frail, but can live a long time, you're not as prone to taking a whole lot of risks unless you really have to.
So why then are there elven adventurers at all? Surely, there are some elves who feel the risk is worth it. It is THOSE elves that can eventually exert tremendous influence in worldy affairs after centuries of planning. Also, remember I used elves as an example of a long-lived race. There are others too not so frail.
With 3e level progression it doesn't take years and years (of a character's life) to progress to extremely high levels....
This so true and is the main reason why we have a problem with the long-lived races and level progression. Like I have said in other threads, my current cleric PC is a 19 year old high priest. He went from 1st thru 8th in a few months game-time. Crazy!
...They've had 200 years to perfect their tactics, so even the grunts of their soldiers are 5th level.
RangerWickett, this one quote of yours undid all that writeup you had about how the orcs will taking over. That is my point exactly. But instead of 200 years, give the elves even more time than that. Much more. The orcs wouldn't stand a chance. And no, the elves are not stupid enough to meet the orcs in the battlefield. With intelligence, planning, magic, and thousands of years and their side, they can be MUCH more subtle than that. Unless the orcish hordes sprung up literally overnight around them, and without the elves knowing about it, the elves would win. IMHO.
The average Parrot can live 150 to 200 years... Better watch out...
Yet more proof that superior intelligence will win in the long run. Especially in long-lived individuals. Why Liches aren't ruling this dimension and the next, I have no idea. Must be they no longer want too.
The reason I give for "Why X doesn't take over the world or why there aren't 20th level serfs everywhere" is the same reason I gave back in 2e. Only heroes (i.e. PCs and special NPCs) truely advance through levels of progression.
I really like this. If only the PCs and special NPCs can go up to high levels, it would explain a lot of why there aren't a lot of high-level members from the long-lived races running around everywhere. I would also explain why so many high-level positions (politically) are taken by high-level (experienced) individuals. And why even evil rulers have amazing tenacity. Not a lot of people out there who can challenge them. Except for the PCs of course.
Eventually (one inland sea later) they did get the mucker closed and sealed. Of course, in the process, *all* of what would have been Underdark drowned.
Holy Cats. This is awesome. Now can someone tell me why an enemy of the underdark races hasn't tried THAT one out? Especially in portal-rich Faerun?
... Taking over the world entails war, war entails risk. With a low reproduction and growth rate, elves can't afford many extended battles of attrition.
No, there are other ways to take over the world. You can do so thru manipulation, secrecy, politics, diplomacy and control. All things the elves with their long life span should excel at.
Finally, the typical alignment of elves is chaotic good. To me, that means that they aren't real keen on imposing their own governance on others.
This is the best argument, IMHO. They believe too strongly in freedom and individuality to impose their will on other races. Who they feel will burn out over time anyway if they do not live in harmony with others and nature. Let's hope they are not wrong.
There are a host of reasons that elves would not dominate the world. To me, that's just an excuse for an outdated mechanic, and an excuse that doesn't bear much scrutiny.
My gripe over the removal of the level-limit mechanic was not because elves would soon rule the world. I stated in the original thread that the problem was that this would cause 90th level elves walking around. Whether they wanted to rule the world or not.
I rule that the extended lifespans are due in part to regenerating brain tissue (humans don't do this so well in RL, neither do other mammals). So while the elves have a lot of time to learn things, they also constantly have to re-study the basics. Humans don't have to do that, but then they die a lot sooner.
This is so wacky, it might even make sense.
In my game, all elves are at least 10th level because of all the challenges they've gone through over the years (and years).
Even the elven children? Also, with no level limits, why stop at 10th? I know you said "at least" but again, if they live so long, why only 10th? Heck, taken to the extreme, I would go so far as to say that the elves could have entire universities based on getting you to 20th level without even having to leave the safetly of home. Remember, they are very civilized and believe in art and education.
Why don't they rule the world? Because they're elves, not humans. They don't think and act like humans do.
Again, I like this one. Must be a human trait to want to rule the world.
Long lifespan of the elves makes them real laid back when it comes to doing a lot of things. They have hundreds if not thousands of years to experience life, so they are naturally not in a great hurry to do so...... Now take this example and apply it to elves. Not only do they have a long time to max out their levels, they have the equivelant of many many human lifetimes! The advancement rate, relative to age, would be the same as humans, unless you have an anomoly elf (one with a very power hungry desires, etc).
Not that I disagreee with you, but the rules say otherwise. Elves advance just as fast as humans in the various classes.
Personally, under 3e stats I think Orcs should rule the world - they breed fast, and even the average 1st level orc is vastly more deadly than a 1st level human, dwarf or elf - +3 ATT & d12+3 dmg/hit means they can easily kill foes several levels higher.
For world domination, you need smarts, organization and planning. I can see orcs being used as grunts, but not running the show.
If orcs (or elves) don't rule your game world it's because of culture & GM fiat, not game rules.
Exactly. My point is that in 3E, without level limits for the long-lived races, the problem is magnified. You need more suspension of disbelief.
More in general, "ruling the world" isn't only a function of racial strength; it depends also (I'd say, mostly) on culture and economical/political conditions.
Which is again why orcs would make lousy candidates and the "older" races, like elves, should already be running the show...IF they wanted to.
As for Elven mages... Do remember that most "Mighty Archmages" are members of short-lived races who take short-cuts to gain high levels of magic power in a short time. Elven mages have the time to slowly develop their powers over time, and not take shortcuts.
Again, the game rules do not bare this out. My elven mage progresses just as fast as your human one does. And by rights, when your wizard is dead and buried of old age, mine would still be climbing the XP charts. I still say exponential XPs, like pre-3E, are the best way to go here to help eleviate this problem.
The same goes for other Elven characters: When you're frail, but can live a long time, you're not as prone to taking a whole lot of risks unless you really have to.
So why then are there elven adventurers at all? Surely, there are some elves who feel the risk is worth it. It is THOSE elves that can eventually exert tremendous influence in worldy affairs after centuries of planning. Also, remember I used elves as an example of a long-lived race. There are others too not so frail.
With 3e level progression it doesn't take years and years (of a character's life) to progress to extremely high levels....
This so true and is the main reason why we have a problem with the long-lived races and level progression. Like I have said in other threads, my current cleric PC is a 19 year old high priest. He went from 1st thru 8th in a few months game-time. Crazy!
...They've had 200 years to perfect their tactics, so even the grunts of their soldiers are 5th level.
RangerWickett, this one quote of yours undid all that writeup you had about how the orcs will taking over. That is my point exactly. But instead of 200 years, give the elves even more time than that. Much more. The orcs wouldn't stand a chance. And no, the elves are not stupid enough to meet the orcs in the battlefield. With intelligence, planning, magic, and thousands of years and their side, they can be MUCH more subtle than that. Unless the orcish hordes sprung up literally overnight around them, and without the elves knowing about it, the elves would win. IMHO.
The average Parrot can live 150 to 200 years... Better watch out...
Yet more proof that superior intelligence will win in the long run. Especially in long-lived individuals. Why Liches aren't ruling this dimension and the next, I have no idea. Must be they no longer want too.
The reason I give for "Why X doesn't take over the world or why there aren't 20th level serfs everywhere" is the same reason I gave back in 2e. Only heroes (i.e. PCs and special NPCs) truely advance through levels of progression.
I really like this. If only the PCs and special NPCs can go up to high levels, it would explain a lot of why there aren't a lot of high-level members from the long-lived races running around everywhere. I would also explain why so many high-level positions (politically) are taken by high-level (experienced) individuals. And why even evil rulers have amazing tenacity. Not a lot of people out there who can challenge them. Except for the PCs of course.
Eventually (one inland sea later) they did get the mucker closed and sealed. Of course, in the process, *all* of what would have been Underdark drowned.
Holy Cats. This is awesome. Now can someone tell me why an enemy of the underdark races hasn't tried THAT one out? Especially in portal-rich Faerun?
Last edited:
Drawmack
First Post
You cannot plan for centuries when you are going to take on a government whose people only live 80 years. If they live for 80 years they are probably only in power for 40 years so you would only have that amount of time to plan then everything changes again.
Anyway instead of level limits I've got an idea.
How about racial based level charts which symbolize longer lived races taking their time to learn things. Kind of like the 2e class based charts but with races instead of classes.
It could work something like this.
Base life span is 100 years and humans are assumed to live 100 years.
Then you divide life span/100. This is your racial modifier.
Now your xp to level becomes (n-1)! * 1000 * racial modifier.
Larcen
Explorer
Drawmack said:
True. But you can subtley manipulate the long line of short-lived rulers into making long term rules and laws that favor you.
Elf Advisor: "Why my dear King Justin the VII, I can't believe you wish to dishonor the sacred memory of the legendary Justin the II by undoing his extremely forward thinking edict that the lands east of the Great River shall remain under Elven protection until such time as the Great Bird in the Sky appears to reclaim his ancestral home? Let's not forget the disaster that struck Justin the III when he left that land unguarded. I trust you have read your history books."
....or some such nonsense like that, backed by well-placed magic and layers and layers of infused tradition and culture manipulation of course.
Drawmack said:
The problem with this is that now you have unbalanced the player characters in relation to one another. The 1/2 orcs in the group would quickly outstrip the elves level-wise, for instance.
Last edited:
Sagan Darkside
First Post
Drawmack said:
I would prefer such a system over ECL's.
SD
Larcen said:
Because then there wouldn't be large populations of underdark residents to keep the aboleths, skums, kuo-toas, illithids (who can planeshift away), some dragons, the undead, and the various other underdark denizens that are immune to being drowned from swarming to the surface and trying to take over.
Besides... many of the underdark's most hated races (such as the Drow) have a lot of powerful clerics and magicians working for them.
GuardianLurker
Adventurer
Aloïsius said:
Aboleths are amphibious, meaning they do need both air and water. Kuo-toas belong in the open sea (be free, demon-fishies!). And illithids (disgusting as they are), are not, to my knowledge, ampibious at all. There are no pure water-breathing dragons to my knowledge. And if there are undead down there, that's were they're staying by now.
Regardless, the Underdark society, with drow fighting mind-flayers and hook horrors scavenging while delvers turn the world into swiss cheese is gone.
Nor, from a meta-gaming view point are any of those you listed (with a few exceptions) standard tropes anyway.
Also, remember that it was an *uncontrolled* portal. There are beasties from the Elemental Plane of Water who would have been *quite* happy to come snack. Which is also why it's probably not a good solution.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
No. You don't. Go read the art of war sometime.
If you're outnumbered, you lose. If you're even, you stand a chance of winning the battle, but the battle will cost more than it's worth. If you outnumber your enemy by more than 2 to 1, you win.
Orcs will pretty much outnumber everyone, all the time, in addition to being the superior combatants most of the time (only the dwarves could rival them in terms of nighttime raids for instance).
And before you say anything about magic, a mage seriously lacks the ability to take and hold land. 1000 orcs, with more every day, don't.
The orcs are unlikely to 'rule' the world, but they are highly likely to eventually wipe out every other race on it's surface, even without some great warlord to lead them.
Reading this thread fresh has given me a new perspective.
You can read that some of these comments imply that elves get to be high level just by virtue of long life ... and just going about your business, which sort of contradicts the basic premise of XP in all editions of DnD. You don't get XP unless you overcome challenges (and in some editions, amass wealth), not just by standing around and growing old.
Unless a GM assigns XP for training oneself all day, then the only people gaining levels by viture of doing their job are the "NPC" classes, such as Expert, Adept, Arisotcrat and Warrior, though I haven't read up yet how those NPC classes get XP.
Depending on how far you want to take it, this does make sense.
A elven NPC class with centuries of experience routinely beats his human competitors. So how does the human race stop from being puppets of the elves? Ah! those crazy, impulsive humans have a lot of more people and it seems that quite a few of them are ready to throw their short, short lives away in challenges and adventures.
The real answer is that humans are on top not becasue there are a 100 of them to 1 elf. The truth is that the humans have 10 adventurers with substatial classes compared to every 2 elves. And of those 2 fey folk, one has an NPC class is still alive and the other had a real class, but he died in that last great War of the Heavens that was only a few centuries ago.
It was truely a pity, that young one was only 400 years old and he threw it all away in 50 years of dangerous living with those epheral humans. Well, at least he didn't make a whiny half-breed with a human woman. *shudder*
You can read that some of these comments imply that elves get to be high level just by virtue of long life ... and just going about your business, which sort of contradicts the basic premise of XP in all editions of DnD. You don't get XP unless you overcome challenges (and in some editions, amass wealth), not just by standing around and growing old.
Unless a GM assigns XP for training oneself all day, then the only people gaining levels by viture of doing their job are the "NPC" classes, such as Expert, Adept, Arisotcrat and Warrior, though I haven't read up yet how those NPC classes get XP.
Depending on how far you want to take it, this does make sense.
A elven NPC class with centuries of experience routinely beats his human competitors. So how does the human race stop from being puppets of the elves? Ah! those crazy, impulsive humans have a lot of more people and it seems that quite a few of them are ready to throw their short, short lives away in challenges and adventures.The real answer is that humans are on top not becasue there are a 100 of them to 1 elf. The truth is that the humans have 10 adventurers with substatial classes compared to every 2 elves. And of those 2 fey folk, one has an NPC class is still alive and the other had a real class, but he died in that last great War of the Heavens that was only a few centuries ago.
It was truely a pity, that young one was only 400 years old and he threw it all away in 50 years of dangerous living with those epheral humans. Well, at least he didn't make a whiny half-breed with a human woman. *shudder*
Larcen
Explorer
Saeviomagy said:
Really? So what you are saying is that as long as one side outnumbers the other 2 to 1, they are guaranteed to win? So technology level or magic level or strategy or luck plays no part in the outcome? You've been watching the Ewoks and Gungans in Star Wars too much. Hey, why don't you and TWO dozen of your friends with Splatmasters try and take me and ONE dozen of my friends with full-auto Angels and Tippmans in a friendly game of paintball?
And the mages won't have to take and hold the land if all the orcs are dead.
P.S. Humor me, I don't where I was going with the paintball example.
But I'll let it stand.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
