ELH in-book sample module made my group cry

[BiggusGeekus]

I won't go into details, but did anyone else have problems with this? It was insanity. I'm fully aware that I might have been doing something wrong, but I ran three 23rd level guys through this (yes, I know the "average" party size is four and yes I decreased the number of creatures accordingly) and they weren't able to get through some of those encounters without me cheating.

The guy playing the barbarian was so distressed that he unconciously slipped into his long-dormant southern accent as he wailed, "Neaow! Thet's jus' wraong!"

It was quite the bloodbath. A long metaphysical trip to the afterlife is one thing, but these guys were racking up frequent flyer miles.

 

[Ysgarran]

Can you give a description of the characters involved? Kind of hard to figure out anything from just a description of 3 23rd level characters.

There can be a huge amount variation between any two 23rd level characters. One thing I don't like is the assumption by the ELH book that the characters have gotten a hold of stat increasing magic sometime in their careers. I tend to run a very low magic game and that kind of stuff just doesn't come along very often.

later,
Ysgarran.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

1 barbarian, one fighter-13/order of the bow-10, 1 cleric

Yes, no arcane casters. Yes, only three of them. I did let them create their guys with 28 points and 1.5 million gp (no more than half to be spent on one item).

But many of the creatures had DR 20/+6. A "normal" +6 item would cost about half the gold alloted.

I guess all I'm saying is that even though the adventure is listed for 21,22, or 23rd level chracters, I wouldn't run anyone below 23 through it and I'd make sure they had +6 items. But even bearing that in mind, there is one encounter where I simply have no idea how the party is to be victorious. No idea at all (the one right outside the tower for those who have the book).

 

[Thanee]

*LOL* Damage Reduction 20/+6 sounds like it could really ruin the archer's day, even if the cleric gives his regular dose of Greater Magic Weapon.

OTOH, on that level, damage output should by far surpass 20 on average, a lot more on a critical hit, unless everything encountered there is immune to criticals as well.

Having no arcane caster could be a hindrance, tho, as they tend to be quite useful in higher level games.

I'm not sure, whether my own group will continue into the epic levels or just start anew, we're slowly approaching the 20th level mark (17th level being the highest among us) right now. But that should be interesting. At least I got a weapon that would be able to fully damage those nasties (an unique bow that confers its +5 bonus to the arrows against damage reduction, which stacks with the arrows' enchantment, having the full +10 using Greater Magic Weapon).

Bye
Thanee

 

[gariig]

Thanee: Are those elf ears?

In reply to this thread...Epic level is much more about have some foresight about what you are doing, using divination spells to see what is going to happen, casting buffs, contigency plans. If you took a group of 7th level characters and let them made Epic level characters, they will probably get mopped up.

Walk into a room, 3 18th level spell casters(EL 21-22) all whip out haste while the party beats the door down and whip out 6 save or die spells...bye-bye party.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Just my opinion ...

The higher the level of a campaign, the harder it is to achieve what is commonly referred to as Game Balance.

I am guessing that this is because as you go up in level, you increase the range of possibilities (especially in 3rd edition.)

A monster with a sword and no skill, swings the sword and hopes it hits. Roll d20, get results, repeat procedure.
But a monster with great skill as a fighter, with many Feats with the sword, can do a heck of a lot more than just swing it and hope it hits!
And an Epic Level monster fighter, can do practically anything the DM can imagine with that sword, accomplishing feats that would shame the Three Musketeers.

Well, what goes with the sword, goes with any weapon, any monster ability, any kind of magic, and anything else in D&D.
You can come against your players in so many different ways, by 10th level, that they couldn't shake a stick (or a dozen sticks) at all of them.
At Epic Levels, it's Lasse Faire. Only the Gods know what you the DM are going to cook up, and the players are probably hoping they won't have to discover your thinking, considering what it means for their characters.

An Epic Level monster, like any monster, can roll over and play dead.
Or, it could engage the party in a straight fight.
Or, it could use tactics and strategy to turn the fight into an epic campaign all of it's own, literally.

That's my take on things. My opinion.
I certainly encountered the balancing problem with my own face to face games (nevermind the IR. I won't go into what the IR demanded ...)

I do hope things work out for you and your group.

 

[hong]

Thanee: Are those elf ears?

I've already made the offer to Thanee to email me, but he/she (you can never tell with hairstyles these days) never took me up on that....

 

[James McMurray]

Run it again for them, but this time explain to them that epic threats generally have at least DR x/+6. They can either spend the cash on a +6 or higher weapon, or get themselves the Pentrate Damage Reduction feat.

If the encounter you mentioned was the approach, it spcifically gives two ways for the characters to get by. One way lets them deal 200d10 to the thing, and the other involves the help of a CR26 creature. It does mention that they have no chance without at least one of those things to help.

 

[Bhadrak]

Just my opinion ...

The higher the level of a campaign, the harder it is to achieve what is commonly referred to as Game Balance.

Very true. Particularly published modules. Published modules always seem to err on the side of being too difficult. They have to be designed for the min-maxed character so that the min-maxed character has a challenge.

When I ran my party through Heart of Nightfang Spire, they were a party of seven (three more than what the module was supposedly designed for) and Gulthias barely broke a sweat when he destroyed them. And that's a module just for 10-13th level characters. I can't imagine how unbalanced epic level mods must be if a party isn't totally twinked for full damage dealing.

 

[Azimer the Mad]

Maybe I'm alone here, but every moderately combat-involved character in my game obtains a Surestrike weapon (from S&F, and possibly other places). It only counts as a +1 for enchantment, and counts as /+whatever for negating DR. My PCs have had Surestrike weapons since 6th level. I seriously suggest mentioning the Surestrike enchantment to your group.

*EDIT* I also think 28-point-buy is very low for a published module. I use 32 pts in my Weird Wars game to simulate relatively normal people. You might want to use the relatively high stats generated by 4d6 Drop Lowest.