ELH in-book sample module made my group cry

[Celebrim]

Bhadrak: Since the early days of TSR it has been ubequitous for them to publish modules with suggested levels 2 or more lower than what is necessary for even a skilled party of adventurers to have a reasonable chance of defeating it.

Always either add 4 players or 2 levels to your group in any published TSR module, unless you want to run it as a tournament module and expect only 1 group in 60 to finish.

Heart of Nightfang Spire seems probably reasonable to me for 4 14th's or 15th's for less experienced players (meaning people that didn't grow up on Tomb of Horrors and Against the Giants). Even then, Gulthias's CR of 19 (plus favorable conditions) is suggestive of a problem.

Essentially, HoNS is I6 Ravenloft, another module that had far to low suggested levels to play it and succeed. The suggested levels were 4-8 characters of 5th-7th, but I don't believe it is possible to beat it with less than 4 8th's (1st ed.) if the DM is experienced and completely ruthless. Strahd simply has too many tricks up his sleave to wear down the party. Six 6th's are quickly reduced by his level drain into non-threats, and against less experience groups, Strahd tends to win even when I take way his level drain and replace it with blood drain.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I wish to back up what Celebrim said above.

Our party also suffered a Total Party Kill in I6 Ravenloft, despite the efforts of my 10th level druid.
The vampiric maid alone was more than a match for us, and sent the entire party packing.

I wouldn't throw Ravenloft at any party that did not average 9th level or higher, and have four or more characters.

S1 The Tomb of Horrors was recommended for character levels 10 through 14.
They underestimate the levels needed for that module, in my opinion.
I wouldn't throw Tomb of Horrors against any party that did not average 18th level or higher, and have six or more characters.

Of course, one can always bring in characters that are too weak for the module.
If they survive, and if they triumph, that is the stuff of legendary games ...

 

[James McMurray]

Somebody mentioned the Tomb of Horrors, thus summoning the Shameless Plug beast, whose war cry is:

Read my Story Hour!

The link is in the sig. (as if people didn't already know that...)

 

[Celebrim]

Eww.... that was fun.

I wish to summon the Shameless Plug Beast again.

There are a couple of things to consider with Tomb of Horrors.

First, it was designed to be a Gencon Tournament module (it might have been Origins, anyhow), and as such had to defeat 99% of the parties that went up against it. I'm assuming it did that, if those parties used the pregen characters from the module, especially without being aware of the unique nature of the challenges in the module.

However, those unique challenges are defeatable by the pregen characters (who are 8th to 14th level), especially if you select carefully. For instance, within the constraints of 10th to 12th and six characters we might select characters #3, #5, #8, #9, #10, and either #11 or #12 and expect to do quite well. A party of careful and experienced players can defeat ToH with 10th to 12th level characters on thier first encounter with the module. This is because few of the challenges are luck or dice dependent.
A party equiped with what is now considered 'normal' ammounts of magic items, gets through most of S1's challenges without alot of difficulty (Demi-Liche aside). A few Potions of Flying (as an example) do wonders in S1.

If you know the challenges ahead of time, you could get through with a party of quite low level - provided you don't want to try to destroy the Demi-Lich (which you don't).

Conversely, unless you are used to dungeon crawls and take your time, being high level isn't necessarily a defence - because so many of S1's challenges don't allow a saving throw! I'd put S1 against 75% of the player's who started in 2nd edition (who through no fault of thier own expect to be pampered or challenged only by combat) with 18th level characters and still expect to kill them.

On the other hand, White Plume Mountain (or Ravenloft for that matter) requires a great deal more combat and needs characters of a certain level as well as good play. Even if you know the whole module cover to cover, you can't beat I6 with 4th level characters. I actually find S2 harder than the more (rightly) famous Tomb of Horrors for this reason. And S4 is ridiculous given its suggested levels and the fact that you really can't avoid the challenges. (It's also the worst designed of the S series, and as much an example of bad dungeon design as S1 is an example of good design.)

 

[Dragonblade]

At high levels tactics become much more important than brute force. Also intelligent character building is necessary.

Its important to choose feat or spell combos that are very effective in a variety of situations, especially combat.

My group has typically found that most published adventures are far too easy for the character levels suggested. And adventure for 4 15th level characters is usually run through by 4 12 or 13th level characters with no problems in my group.

My group also allots party treasure and magic based on need and who can use it most effectively. Never on random chance or players bidding for it. A somewhat Communistic system that works because everyone in the group is a selfless player.

Just for example sake, I have an elven Fighter 5/Order of the Bow 9 who has an AC of 30 and a four attacks per round with his bow at +30/+30/+25/+20 doing 1d8+11 per arrow. And he is only 14th level.

This is a legal character, built by the rules and using magic items earned through play. In fact he has less magic than suggested by the DMG. I achieved those bonuses simply through intelligent character building and magic item use.

We are currently being run through Dragon Mountain by our DM and having a great time. We have even had several party deaths but our cleric has always raised or resurrected everyone. But the fact is that most of our party is under 14 level and we are not finding it difficult despite the occasional death.

I guess my point is that smart play and good character building can overcome any obstacle.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Just for example sake, I have an elven Fighter 5/Order of the Bow 9 who has an AC of 30 and a four attacks per round with his bow at +30/+30/+25/+20 doing 1d8+11 per arrow. And he is only 14th level.

Excellent! Good job.

You now have 7 to 9 levels to gain +21 to your attack bonus so that you have a 5% chance of hitting the monster in the second encounter. No lie. AC 70.

Good luck!

 

[ForceUser@Home]

A long metaphysical trip to the afterlife is one thing, but these guys were racking up frequent flyer miles.

ROFL!

 

[Hammerhead]

*********
Some spoilers for heart of Nightfang Spire!
****************************

I tend to think that modules assume well built, although not smackdown caliber characters, full awareness of all the tricks that the character can pull, and excellent teamwork.

Just thinking of the right combination of spells can be quite a help. Thanks to my paranoid use of protective spells, I would have given my cleric a good shot against Gulthias or paired up with our wizard. Because I couldn't layer protective magic on every character, the unprotected characters were rapidly singled out and demolished, while my character, with lots of wards, and the fighter rogue with evasion were virtually untouched.

I actually found that several previous fights, particularly those involving large numbers of Dread Girallons (same as normal, except that the name shows how dangerous they are), were as deadly as the final battle.

However, arbitrary type effects at higher levels seem to be more common. For example, Gulthias was Improved Invisible when we fought him. Out of a party of 7, 2 people can target him, my cleric and the wizard. Then the wizard bites it to finger of death on first round. So our fighters have relatively little effect, because they can't see invis. At high levels, if you can't find a way to see invis, you're screwed. If you can't find a way to fly, you're screwed. If you can't find a way to guard your weak saves, you're screwed. And you have to be ready ahead of time. If the first time you realize that your character is vulnerbable to death spells is when you have to make a DC 27 save with a +8 save bonus, it's too late. As the variety of possible attacks and defenses increases at higher levels, there's going to be an ever growing chance that the enemy will have an ability you can't deal with.

Gee, I never realized guys could have an AC 70. I need to find a way to increase my attacks. Maybe I should have have commisioned a spell storing item, and stuck a persistent, heightened divine favor in there for the bonus to hit, and then put a few quickened true strikes in there, along with convincing Bob to research EPIC GREATER MAGIC WEAPON to give my weapons +7 bonuses, so I can hit more, do more damage, and beat their DR. Maybe I also should get my bracers of archery souped up to a +10 to hit and +5 to damage when within 30 ft.

Of course, if you haven't fought that battle ahead time, then your attacks will be ineffective. Preparation and foresight will probably be the difference between effectively fighting an enemy and between spraying our arrows and praying for 20s.

 

[Dragonblade]

Well, there is more to the game than bonuses, although that is important.

If an AC 70 monstrosity can't be injured directly then we can find another way of getting through the encounter.

Besides, why is the AC 70? If its not from Dex than touch attack based magic should work. Unless this enemy has a really nasty SR.

In which case, containment magic would work. Imprison the monster in a wall of force and go around it. Monsters have to breathe, don't they? Suffocate it. No saving throw for that.

Or just use dimension door or ethereal jaunt and avoid the creature altogether.

There is always a way.