Elseworlds D&D 4th Edition

[RangerWickett]

I'm bored, and I don't have access to any of my files to write on existing projects, so I'm going to brainstorm Dungeons or Dragons, 4th edition.

DoD keeps the necessary sacred cows in the form of archetypes. The rules themselves are very flexible, but examples are presented in each chapter to help you make classic archetypes.

Basic Characters: 0th level is the starting point for everyone. When you're 0th level, all you have are basic ability scores, Wound Points equal to your Constitution score, and skill points equal to your Intelligence score (max ranks per skill is 3). You have one feat.

Races: You have four 'traits' that you use to purchase racial abilities and character backstory abilities.

Sample race packages include:

• Human. Medium size (1 trait), bonus feat (1 trait), +1 skill point per level (1 trait), and any one other trait.
• Elf. Medium size (1 trait), low-light vision (1 trait), bonus feat - Alertness (1 trait), +6 skill points from starting off as a 90-year-old (1 trait). The +2 Dex/-2 Str is a freebie.
• Halfling. Small size (free), bonus feat - +1 to all saves (1 trait), bonus feat - weapon focus (hurled weapons) (1 trait), bonus feat - +2 Climb and Jump (1 trait), bonus feat (something else). The +2 Dex/-2 Str is a freebie.
• Orc. Medium size (1 trait), darkvision (2 traits), +2 Str (1 trait). The extra +2 Str/-2 Int/-2 Cha is a freebie.

Automatic Abilities: Regardless of class, every two levels you get to increase your saves by a total of +3, divided as you choose among Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. No base save can be higher than half your character level +2 (the same as a normal 'good save' advancement in 3rd edition).

It goes 1st level = +2, 2nd level = +3, 3rd = +5, 4th = +6.

So an 8th level character would have a total of +12, so he might have +6/+3/+3, or +11/+1/+0, but he couldn't have +12/+0/+0.

Also regardless of class, every even level you get +1 to your base attack bonus, and instead of iterative attacks, you just add your attack bonus to your damage. Every third level you get a feat that can be spent on anything.

Classes: There are three classes - Expert, Fighter, and Mage. Experts get 10 skill points per level. At every fourth level they get a bonus feat, which is mostly used for skill abilities.

Fighters get an extra +1 to base attack bonus every odd level (so you end up having a full BAB progression). They also add this bonus to damage with their attacks, so a 20th level Fighter automatically gets +20 damage. Fighters get a second attack at 11th level, at the full bonus. At every even level they get a bonus feat, which can be used for combat and such. They get 2 skill points/level.

Mages get to learn spells. There are eleven different spells. Attack, Charm, Compel, Create, Defend, Enhance, Heal, Illusion, Move, Summon, and Transform. Each level the mage gets to apply +2 to the spells, so he basically improves his casting ability. They don't get bonus feats. They get 2 skill points/level.

Skills:

• Acrobatics (compresses Balance, Jump, and Tumble)
• Climb
• Craft (includes Forgery)
• Deception (combines Bluff and Disguise)
• Disable Device (also includes Open Locks)
• Handle Animal
• Influence (compresses Diplomacy and Intimidate, and also covers Gather Information)
• Knowledge (culture)
• Knowledge (history)
• Knowledge (magic)
• Knowledge (nature)
• Language
• Perception (Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot)
• Profession (includes Appraise and things like Knowledge engineering)
• Sneak (Hide and Move Silently)
• Spellcraft
• Survival
• Swim.

Efforts that were once Epic are now simply tough. You get synergy bonuses at 5 ranks, and a lot of skills have a feat associated with them, with a prerequisite of 15 ranks, that gives you some cool ability.

• Acrobatics feat lets you walk on air with 15 ranks.
• Climb feat lets you fight while climbing on things without losing your Dex bonus.
• Deception feat lets you feint as a free action.
• Influence feat lets you create emotions in people, with tangible effects.
• Perception feat gives you blindsense.
• Sneak feat lets you hide in plain sight.
• Swim feat lets you hold your breath for minutes at a time, and fight with no penalties underwater.

Feats:
There aren't as many feats as before.

Armor Proficiency comes in light (up to studded leather, includes shields) and heavy (from chain shirts to full plate, includes tower shields).

Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes

Skill Focus. Either choose one skill to get a +3 bonus, or choose two skills that either share an associated ability score, or that provide each other a synergy bonus, and both get +2. You can select this feat multiple times, but you can only select a given skill once.

Spell Focus. Pick a spell. You get a +2 bonus to it.

Weapon Proficiencies have the following categories.

• Simple.
• Axes, Picks, and Scythes.
• Clubs, Maces, and Flails.
• Swords (shortswords, rapiers, scimitars, longswords).
• Hurled Weapons (spears, rocks, thrown hand-axes, etc.; just because you're proficient in using hand-axes in melee doesn't mean you know how to throw them).
• Reach Weapons (longspears, glaives).
• Bows.
• Double Weapons (you must have the appropriate other feat too).
• Whip Weapons.
• Chain Weapons.

Weapon Focus lets you pick a weapon group of the above types, and you get +1 to attacks with those weapons.

There is a feat chain for each primary ability score.

Strength - Power Attack. Cleave. Great Cleave. Awesome Blow.

Dexterity - Lightning Reflexes. Dodge (+1 to AC). Mobility (You don't incur attacks of opportunity from movement). Whirlwind Attack (Strike everyone within reach).

Constitution - Great Fortitude. Endurance (Resist exhaustion and fatigue). Diehard (Take no penalties from Wound damage, never pass out). Damage Reduction (You get DR 5).

Intelligence - Combat Expertise.

Wisdom - ?

Charisma - ?


Spells: The eleven different types of spells all have no more than three basic effects, all of which scale based on the 'level' of the spell. Spell level goes from 1 to 20. You do not have spell slots or MP, but rather a casting bonus based on how many points you put into the appropriate spell.

Whenever you cast a spell, you make a check against DC 10 + the spell's level. If you succeed, the spell goes off. If you fail, the spell fails and you take a cumulative -1 penalty to spellcaster for the rest of the day. If you fail with a natural 1, the spell fails, you get the penalty, and you make a DC 15 Will save. If you fail that, some sort of magical mishap occurs, typically causing damage.

Typically you'll stick to easier spells, going for a lot of weak powers in combat instead of risking a failure by trying to pull out the big guns. Even high-level Mages will prefer to blast a little at a time, thoug they'll still have the option to blow a lot of up at once, if they roll well enough.

 

[RangerWickett]

Bumpify to see if anyone's interested. *grin*

 

[italianranma]

I read it, it was interesting. I'll say this though; 3rd edition was so foriegn from 2nd that I was completely blown away. What you proposed is too familiar. But who knows what 4th ed. will be like?

 

[daTim]

Seems more like a simplification of the rules than a fourth edition.

I like the feat chains though, wish there were more of them in D&D

 

[lp]

Looks like a lot of the alternative rules are modified there, but hey it looks good to me. I would be willing to play with those rules... although with so many feat slots to fill and with less feats it would be a bother.

 

[Merlion]

I am torn about thease sorts of things. On the one hand, I like genericism, and the idea of a simplified aproach is appealing (although what you have here is a little too simplified even for the simplified end of my taste).

On the other hand, I like having lots of classes with specfic sets of abilities.

One of the main problems I have with what you present here is the same thing I dislike about the Generic Classes system in UA. There are a lot of archtypes/classes that are hard to really give full treatment to in this sort of system (druid, monk, bard spring to mind especially, and also slightly less so with paladin, ranger.)

I would like to see more things that are currently class abilities be availble as feats. Especially a lot of rogue stuff...uncanny dodge, evasion, all the high level special rogue abilities...I could see Rogue being like fighter, with lots of bonus feats that can be spent on those sorts of abilities.

Also, I particularly like having a somewhat rigid magic system...one with individual clearly quantified spells. As far as magic systems go, Arcana Unearthed's is probably the one I like most mechanically...very flexible and organic, while still complex enough to do interesting things, with a nice strong backbone to prevent confusion.


All that aside, I dont think we will ever see Dungeons and Dragons core go to a loose open 3 or 4 generic classes with everything handled as feats sort of system. I also feel that 4th edition will be more like 3rd edition than 3rd edition was like 2nd edition...mainly because I think 4th edition will still be d20 system. Since 3.5 is already halfway a new edition, I dont think 4th edition will really be *that* different.

I know this is a little off topic, but if I had to guess right now I'd say 4th edition will probably include a number of Unearthed Arcana rules made standard, or at least made "official variants" that are actually in one of the 3 core rulebooks. In particular, I wouldnt be shocked to see Class Defense Bonuses, Armor as Damage Reduction and Spontaneous Metamagic be made standard. I dont think they'll ever do away with hit points (although again, Wound/Vitality points may be made an official variant) or armor class...but Class Defense and Armor as DR I can see.

I think feats will be expanded...some of the stuff they've been releasing in the last while makes me think they finally realized the potential of the feat concept.

I foresee the Cleric class getting a severe revamp. Probably the druid as well, since those are the classes people most see as being overpowered. Same with the Sorcerer, but in reverse. That, or the Sorcerer may just be scrapped, but I doubt it.

I doubt they will change the magic system, but they may make the Spell Points, and perhaps something akin to Arcana Unearthed's system official variants.

I dont think DnD will ever be made any more than slightly more generic than it is now.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

You never know, Merlion. The only constant in the universe is change. I just hope that game doesn't go through another major rules change for at least another 10 years.

 

[Merlion]

Some things you do know with these things.

Dungeons and Dragons will always have classes, armor class (or the same thing by another name), hit points and the like. I think its 99.9% certain that it will always have pretty much the same classes (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, ranger, druid especially, and most likely paladin bard and monk especially now). ANd those classes will I think remain fundementally the same, as they have done all along...especially on the archtypal level. I dont really think Vancian magic will ever go away as the primary magic system.

I think DnD will always have alignment, and probably always the same basic system, although I can hope that it will be improved and that alignment restrictions will be removed.

But I really dont think there will be another major rules change any time soon. I'm sure 4th edition will be d20 system. The d20 system is so good at its heart I dont see why a new core engine would ever be needed.

But, I do think 4th edition will be a lot like 3.x...far more so than 3.x was like 2nd edition.

 

[Aule]

Long time lurker here. I've posted a couple times before, but that was way back when ENWorld was brand new, and 3E wasn't out yet!!!! I check in often though.

For a 4th edition, the numero uno item I would like to see is to have ALL class abilities be either a skill or a feat, with MAYBE the exception of saving throws.

The arguments over how a ranger should look would end, as those people who like spells would take them, and those who didn't would not. If I'm a paladin, and I don't want to have a mount, why should that ability be part of what makes my character balanced against another? Essentially, I as a paladin would have had to pay "points" for access to the ability, even if I never use it.

Attack rating would be based on weapon skills. How specific the weapon skills should be is up for debate. I would like to see melee, thrown, missle, and unarmed, with various feats and specializations put on top of that base.

Wielding magic would be a skill, and would end the debate over magic using classes getting the shaft from multi-classing. If you are a single classed fighter, and don't have the wizard class, you wouldn't have access to the "wizardry" skill (or whatever), so you can't cast wizard spells. However, If you are a multi-class fighter/wizard, you should be able to spend some points from advancing your fighter class to improve your wizardry skill.

The basic idea is to allow for great customization within a particular class, and consistency on how a character's abilities are gained. Barbarians as a class could be done away with since they are really only a specialized fighter with an attitude and cultural theme.

 

[Merlion]

For a 4th edition, the numero uno item I would like to see is to have ALL class abilities be either a skill or a feat, with MAYBE the exception of saving throws

I would like to see things that represent special abilities that anyone can do made into feats. Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Opportunist, Slippery Mind, Crippling Strike stuff like that.

Mystical and supernatural abilities should, I think, be class specfic. Wild Shape, Woodland Stride, Ki Strike, Bardic Music, Divine Grace, Smite Evil etc.

I dont think DnD will ever make things like that accessible via feats...and that I'm fine with.

The arguments over how a ranger should look would end, as those people who like spells would take them, and those who didn't would not. If I'm a paladin, and I don't want to have a mount, why should that ability be part of what makes my character balanced against another? Essentially, I as a paladin would have had to pay "points" for access to the ability, even if I never use it.

Fundemental class traits like base attack and save bonuses and spellcasting wont change, and I dont think they should for DnD. DnD has always been a strong, rigidly class based system, and thats one of those things I dont foresee them ever changing. I think 4th edition will still have the same base attack and save progressions, and each class will have a certain one.


Spellcasting certainly will remain class specfic. I think a better answer(or one that is more likely to ever be implmented in the DnD game) to the debates you describe with classes like Ranger and Paladin, is to include some "official variants" of the class. Put them in the DMG, or even the PH, so that way if someone wants to play a spell-less ranger, they can do it without having to try and get DM permission for something from a non core source.

Attack rating would be based on weapon skills. How specific the weapon skills should be is up for debate. I would like to see melee, thrown, missle, and unarmed, with various feats and specializations put on top of that base.

Like I said, I dont foresee attack bonus/capability ever being anything but class-based in DnD.

Some more feats and things for allowing non-melee types to improve their abilities with certain types of weapons certainly wouldnt hurt though.

Wielding magic would be a skill, and would end the debate over magic using classes getting the shaft from multi-classing. If you are a single classed fighter, and don't have the wizard class, you wouldn't have access to the "wizardry" skill (or whatever), so you can't cast wizard spells. However, If you are a multi-class fighter/wizard, you should be able to spend some points from advancing your fighter class to improve your wizardry skill.

Multiclassing is kind of its own issue...but this is another thing I dont see ever changing within DnD. I foresee 4th edition keeping the Vancian fire and forget system. If it changes, it would probably be to a spell point system, or something similiar to the AU system.

We are already seing some improvements as far as issues with multiclassed spellcasters. Things like the Practiced Caster feat, and the magic rating system in Arcana Unearthed could be implemented to make these combinations more effective.


Personally, I favor a reasonbly rigid magic system...in the end, its a lot easier. I would love to see DnD switch to the Arcana Unearthed system though, as it has the simplicity and straightforward nature of the Vancian system, but with much greater flexibility so you feel more like your character is a magic wielder rather than a spell-flinger.

The basic idea is to allow for great customization within a particular class, and consistency on how a character's abilities are gained. Barbarians as a class could be done away with since they are really only a specialized fighter with an attitude and cultural theme

Honestly, I am pretty happy with most of the classes. Barbarian should definitly go since as you say its just a fighter with a theme/background.

Some would say the Monk can or should be removed, but I have always maintained that despite the strong Eastern flavour text given the Monk, the archtype of a physical and spiritual adept is one that is worthy of a class.

Actually, the class I would most like to see removed or utterly revamped would be the Cleric. Of course, I know its never going to be removed.
However, in the next edition they must at least make the Cleric balanced, and it would be nice if they at least do some work on its major archtypal identity crisis as well.


A lot of people seem to want a shift to a classless or nearly classless system based entirely on skills and feats. This isnt an inherently bad idea and certainly has merits, but its not something thats likely to actually ever happen with DnD. And I for one am ok with that...I dont really mind rigid class systems.

Actually, what I would like to see is a lot of Unearthed Arcana stuff made core...and then I would like to see, in 4th edition, a 4th core rulebook that essentially consists of "official variants", and advice on altering the rules to fit different worlds and character concepts. It could include things like rangers with no spells, or a more western style Monk, or a more militant bard or what have you.