Elusive Target + Improved Trip

[Caliban]

Elusive Target is a Tactical Feat from the Complete Warrior. One of the abilities of the feat is "Cause Overreach" - if you provoke an AoO from movement and your attacker misses you, you get a free trip attempt against that opponent, and they don't get to try and trip you back if you fail to trip them.

Now Improved Trip gives you +4 on trip attempts, but it also states "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt."

So, if I use the "Cause Overreach" ability and trip someone as I move past them, would I also get a free melee attack on them? I did trip them in melee combat, but I didn't actually use an attack to do it.

I'm asking for opinions on this, because it's my character and I'm biased.

It looks kind of overpowered at first glance, but really it's only likely to work once or twice against intelligent opponents before they decline to make AoO's on you, or choose a different option than a normal melee attack.

 

[domino]

I don't see why not.

First, you need an Attack of Opportunity
THEN, they need to miss it.
THEN you need to trip them
THEN you need to hit them.

It's not exactly a solid lock chain of events, for the cost of two feats.

 

[Legildur]

Yeah, I think it works. And it should work reasonably well against opponents the same size as your character (or smaller). However, even with the Mobility feat (as a prerequisite for Elusive Target) there are plenty of opponents that you do NOT want to provoke an AOO from under any circumstances.

 

[Caliban]

Well, you also have to have Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertise (prerequisites for the feats in question). It's actually a 5 feat combo, but all the feats work together: Combat Expertise for +5 AC, Mobility for +4 AC, Dodge for +1 AC against one (possibly two) opponents, Elusive target to give you trip attempts without using up attacks or getting tripped in return, and Improved Trip for +4 on trip attempts and a free attacks on anyone you trip. If you trip them, the -4 on the prone opponents AC mostly offsets the -5 attack penalty from Combat Expertise.

You can potentially move past multiple opponents and get multiple free attacks after tripping them with no chance of being tripped in return yourself. (It kind of back-fires if they actually hit you though. )


The character in question is a half-orc dervish with a 45 speed who drinks an Enlarge Person potion (reach and +5 on trip attempts) and deliberately provokes so that he can try to trip opponents before attacking them. I'm trying to decide between Improved Trip or Whirlwind Attack as his 9th level feat.

If he doesn't want to risk an AoO, he will just tumble. As a Dervish he can take 10 on tumble checks in combat, so by that level he can automatically do a full speed tumble past two opponents if he wishes.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'd say no. The Improved Trip gives you a free attack as if you hadn't used your attack for a Trip attempt. The Cause Overreach function does not cost you an attack and furthermore doesn't use the normal mechanic for trip attacks (no touch attack is required and there is no possibility of a countertrip). Furthermore, Cause Overreach labels it a free trip attempt rather than a free trip attack. It's a pedantic argument, but I think is somewhat stronger than the counterargument, and game balance concerns are enough to make this a persuasive argument to me.

It would also apply to the shield charge feat which gives a free trip attempt on a successful attack with a shield at the end of a charge and a wolf or wardog's free trip attempt on a successful bite (though you'd need to be awakened or a polymorphed human/etc to get have Improved Trip on an animal....)

+4 to all those trip checks is plenty of synergy for Improved Trip (which is plenty powerful in its own right) to be a good addition to an elusive target build.

 

[Stalker0]

+4 to all those trip checks is plenty of synergy for Improved Trip (which is plenty powerful in its own right) to be a good addition to an elusive target build.

Especially since Elusive Target gives you something improved trip don't...the ability to fail a trip attack and not be tripped back.

 

[Legildur]

I'd say no.... Furthermore, Cause Overreach labels it a free trip attempt rather than a free trip attack. It's a pedantic argument, ....

Pedantic? Maybe. But this is the Rules Forum And game balance aside, this part of the argument seals it for me. I've changed my mind - no free follow up attack.

 

[ARandomGod]

Pedantic? Maybe. But this is the Rules Forum And game balance aside, this part of the argument seals it for me. I've changed my mind - no free follow up attack.

I'd say no.... Furthermore, Cause Overreach labels it a free trip attempt rather than a free trip attack. It's a pedantic argument, ....

I agree with Leglidur that pendantic is almost the point of the rules forum (gasp!), however I wanted to point out in that spirit that the improved trip feat states:

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

So the Imp Trip feat also refers to it as trip attempts, and says "If you trip an opponent in melee combat"... So by RAW the only way it wouldn't work if the attacks from Cause Overreach somehow weren't considered melee combat. (Or if there's something I don't know about that says AoO's aren't melee combat) Now, not having the feat in front of me here I can't say for certain that this is or isn't the case, but I strongly suspect that it would still be considered melee, and therefore the combo should work.

 

[Bill Muench]

Well, you also have to have Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertise (prerequisites for the feats in question). It's actually a 5 feat combo, but all the feats work together: Combat Expertise for +5 AC, Mobility for +4 AC, Dodge for +1 AC against one (possibly two) opponents, Elusive target to give you trip attempts without using up attacks or getting tripped in return, and Improved Trip for +4 on trip attempts and a free attacks on anyone you trip. If you trip them, the -4 on the prone opponents AC mostly offsets the -5 attack penalty from Combat Expertise.

You can potentially move past multiple opponents and get multiple free attacks after tripping them with no chance of being tripped in return yourself. (It kind of back-fires if they actually hit you though. )


The character in question is a half-orc dervish with a 45 speed who drinks an Enlarge Person potion (reach and +5 on trip attempts) and deliberately provokes so that he can try to trip opponents before attacking them. I'm trying to decide between Improved Trip or Whirlwind Attack as his 9th level feat.

If he doesn't want to risk an AoO, he will just tumble. As a Dervish he can take 10 on tumble checks in combat, so by that level he can automatically do a full speed tumble past two opponents if he wishes.

I've got a relatively similar character in LG (Balkunish Half-Orc Dervish) who uses the same tactic and I'd say 90% of the time the DM doesn't have a problem with it. I always ask before the game starts and go with whatever they decide. Afterall, it isn't like it's the only thing the character can do. It also works nicely with Diverting Defense - provoke while leaving a flank, your dodge buddy misses you and hits his ally, then you trip your dodge buddy and follow up with the improved trip attack. It works even better if you have the Opportunist ability.

Bill

 

[KarinsDad]

So the Imp Trip feat also refers to it as trip attempts, and says "If you trip an opponent in melee combat"... So by RAW the only way it wouldn't work if the attacks from Cause Overreach somehow weren't considered melee combat. (Or if there's something I don't know about that says AoO's aren't melee combat) Now, not having the feat in front of me here I can't say for certain that this is or isn't the case, but I strongly suspect that it would still be considered melee, and therefore the combo should work.

That could be one reason, but there is another.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

This phrase is also used in the Knockdown discussions. You do not get the extra free melee attack unless you gave up an attack for the trip attempt.

In this case, he is getting the free trip attack because he provoked an Attack of Opportunity, not because he used an attack attempt to trip with (similar to Knockdown where you get the free trip because you did 10 points of damage, not because you used up an attack for a trip attempt).

So no, this would not work.