Elven Accuracy Samurai Archer vs Xbow master battlemaster analysis.

Benny89

Visitor
Why I recommend elf for both buulds? Because while Vuman battlemaster sounds good on paper- from my experience of playing one (Vuman xbow master) the lack of darkvision for range character is absolutely devastating. For melee it's not an issue: Light Cantrip on your weapon sorts that out. But for range character having disadvantage if you want to shot from any good distance (it's kind of lame when you have to go into melee range to start using your range advantage...). Hence why I think at least 60ft Darkvision is must-have on any range character. You can always dip something for darkvision as Vuman, but when considering pure 20 level fighter I would rather have it as range character.

1. PURE CLASS COMPARSION:


But to the builds, so in your opinion which one is better and what kind of multiclasses you think would work well here (or you recommend staying pure):

1. Elven Accuracy Samurai Archer. Triple advantage + Sharpshooter + 20 DEX at level 8. Action surge gives us before level 11 - 6 attacks with troiple d20 rolls + archery style.

Pros: Deadly accuracy. Archery + double advantage + action surge makes you deliver tons of pain in your "crown" turn. 20 DEX by level 8? Also you get for free WIS proficieny giving you one of best thing you can get for Fighter: a protection vs WIS save-spell which can usually lock you out of combat. Rapid Strikes allows for additional free attack which still benefits from Elven Accuracy. Only attack you forgo advantage from loses it, but the additional attack you get still gets advantage. This allows Samurai to attack on level 15 with Action Surge 7 times in one turn, which is nice.

Cons: Before level 10 you have only 3 usage of Fighting spirit per long rest. After that you have one free per each fight, which is enough to focus on priority target. Considering most encounters in 5e lasts around 3 turns- having one turn of 6-8 attacks with triple advantage is not a bad thing. Bonus Action is occupied by Fighting Spirit.

2. Elf Xbow Master. Leve 4- Xbow Master, level 6- Sharpshooter, level 8- 18 DEX (+2 DEX). 20 DEX is delayed but you get free bonus action attack and Precision strike- which allows you to add your superiority dice (4 at level 1, 5 at level 7, 6 at level 15) to attack roll, but before you know if attack hit or not. You can of course take Vuman and be done at level 8 same as elf Samurai, but I can guarantee you- you will have hard times being range sharpshooter (who have advantage of attacking from REALLY LONG distance) without even 60ft darkvision. Precision strikes won't help much when you have disadvantage on attacks.

Pros: Precision attack offsets Sharpshooter same as Elven Accuracy does. But it doesn't take bonus action to use it. You regain all dices on short rest, which is great.

Cons: Though you have superiority dices, you have no way to give yourself advantage. Which means even though you have 5 superiority dices at level 7, when you attack on level 11 + action surge for 7 attacks, it's highly possible (at least it was for me what I was playing one) you will use all your superiority dices during that turn to offset Sharpshooter. Since you will roll most of the time normally without advantage. With average of 2 short rests per adventuring day- that means you may find yourself in situation where you have pretty much same number of "omph" turns during day as Samurai have. And while you regain at level 10 a single dice on initiative roll, the Samurai regains one Samurai Spirit usage which will allow him for another full 6 attacks combo with Elven Accuracy per fight. If your party does not have short rest between next encounter- the Battlemaster won't be able to offset Sharpshooter each encounter, while Samurai past level 10 can.

2. Multiclass or Not:

So is it worth to multi? I am not sure. For both additional Action Surge is huge. That is one more combo, though Battlemaster may be out of dices, while Samurai can make in one encounter a 2 turns of like 13 attacks, 12 of which (before level 20) will have double advantage. Imo Staying pure is more important for Battlemaster to get higher and more dices than it is for Samurai who get's his resource regain at level 10.

3. MULTICLASS OPTIONS: SAMURAI

For Samurai I think 3 levels of Gloom Stalker is best. Additional attacks in first turn is essential for Samurai as his first turn is usually his best card due to Action Surge + Elven Accuracy + Fighting Spirit Combo. Also most Samurai Archers will start with high Wisdom (I like Wood Elf for 8, 17, 14, 8, 16, 10) which will add to initiative roll. Also Gloom Stalker offers free invisibility in Darkness, superior Darkvision (which can be great if you started with Vuman after all) and if you position yourself in dark place during combat (full darkness) you will have free advantage on attack from that position due to fact that enemies can't see you (both those who don't have darkvision and those who have Darkvision), making you deadliest range character inside dungeons or during dark nights. This would allow you to save your Fighting Spirit more, which is always great. And with 20 DEX and 16 WIS you get +8 to initiative, which not too shaby!

So 12 Samurai/3 Gloom Stalker would attack in first turn (assuming no darkness) 3 times, 3 times from Action Surge and 2 additional times from Dread Ambusher with bonus 2d8 dmg. Which gives us total of 10d8 + 40 + 80 dmg in first turn, average 185 dmg. Without anything critting.

If we are however attacking from Darkness, which gives us auto advantage with Umbral Sight, we can cast as bonus action Hunter's Mark, additing to our total damage an additional 8d6, av. 28, boosting our first turn damage to potentialy average 213 dmg.

Another good multiclass for Samurai would be 3 levels of Hexblade. Mostly for Curse 19-20 crit range and bonus damage and Darkness + Devil'Sight. We could surround ourself with Darkness 2 times per short rest and shoot with double advantage from inside of it, while also giving enemies disadvantage on attacks and we can't being targeted by many spells. Con is Darkness requires action to use and Curse is only 30ft range. So our first turn would mostly go for setup: Bonus Action Curse, Action Darkness. Only from second turn we would be able to attack targets with triple advantage and increased damage. I think Darkness would serve better when you will fight a horde, but when it comes to single enemy I think Damage Now is better than Damage Later.

Last I think would be Assassin. 3 levels gives us Assassinate, which gives us auto advantage in first turn and auto crits. Which is great as in first turn using Action Surge we would not only save Fighting Spirit but also deal maximum damage of 12d8 + 30 + 60 dmg for av. 144 dmg. Not bad, but not as good as Gloom Stalker.

However what if we could combine those options. In terms of ASI we really don't need anything else past level 12. We have SS, 20 DEX and EA by level 8, Samurai gives us free RES (WIS) and on level 12 can grab RES (DEX)/Whatever else and we are good.

So we could go for build like Samurai 12/3 Gloom Stalker/3 Assassin. This would give us not only in first turn auto crits, auto advantage, expertise in stealth, bonus to initiative from WIS but also 2 additional attacks from Dread Ambusher. So if we attack either from total Darkness or when we attack creature that didn't take it's turn yet - we have advantage. If we attack from supprise (20 DEX + double proficiency in stalth + being invisible in darkness- duh..) we get auto crits. Both scenarios frees our bonus action for Hunter's Mark. So in first turn we would attack for toal of (all with double advantage from Elven Accuracy): bonus action Hunter's Mark, 3 attacks, 3 attacks action surge, 2 attacks gloom stalker. All auto crits, all Elven Accuracy. Damag would 16d6 + 6d8 + 45 + 6d8 + 45 + 4d8 + 30 + 4d8 = 16d6 + 20d8 + 120 = 56 + 90 + 120 = 266 damage in first turn. Ow, I forgot 4d6 from Sneak attack so 280 dmg.

After that we have various of ways to use Elven Accuracy:
Umbral Sight if fighting in Darkness, bonus action hide with double proficiency in stealth or Fighting Spirit from Samurai. Making sure that Elven Accuracy is put to good use with Sharpshooter.

Also on level 20 you would get rapid strike adding anoter attack to your first turn combo and to every turn you have advanatge on.


MULTICLASS OPTIONS: Battlemater

Pretty much I would rather keep battlemaster pure for as long as possible as without advantage you need that increase amount of dices and dice number (d8 -> d10 -> d12) to offset and support Sharpshooter and Action Surge usage.

However, I think Gloom Stalker 3 is also a very strong dip here. Hunter's Mark fights with Xbow Master bonus attack, however free Darkness invisibility, darkvision and WIS initiative bonus are all nice additions, especially if you started as Vuman and have no darkvision, which makes you very bad when fighting in darkness using range weapon.

For same reason I think 3 levels of Hexblade for Devil's Sight is also great.

However I would not mix more due to fact that Imo Battlemaster needs to focus on Fighter progression more to get more dices and better dices.

However the 12 Battlemaster/3 Gloom Stalker/3 Assassin build from Samurai section would also work great here. Since same as with Samurai- we save our resources in first turn due to having advantage and auto crits. Also Umbral Sight gives BM some quire reliable way (dungeons, underdark, caves, forgotten cities, night etc.) to attack with advantage, which can eliminate need of using too much of our superiority dices. However you don't get your last sup dice till level 20. But's I think it would still be strong for BM as wel.

4. MY VERDICT?

Overall I think both range builds are pretty much neck to neck. I think BM scales much better at lower levels (1-10) while Samurai starts to scale much better at levels 10-20.

This is nicely shown on below chart: How many attacks per day they get their superiority dice/advantage on. We are assuming 6 battles per day and 2 short rests (but you can change to how your table plays):

Battlemaster vs samurai.
level 3 = 12 vs 6
level 5 = 12 vs 12
level 7 = 15 vs 12
level 10 = 15 vs 18
level 11 = 15 vs 27
level 15 = 18 vs 27
level 17 = 18 vs 36
level 20 = 18 vs 48

So this shows that Samurai get's ahead of actually how many attacks per day benefit from his feature (advantage) vs Battlemaster (precision attack) to offset SharpShooter for as many attacks as possible during adventuring day. This is because level 10 Samurai feature is much better than level 10 BM feature. If you have lower number of fights per adventuring day (like 2-3) then Samurai get's ahead even more.

Therfore: if your campaign will go to not higher than level 10, maybe 11- I recommend Battlemaster much more. Espceially if you have quite a lot of encounters per long rest. If however you will play 1-20 or you will start a higher level and go to levels 12-20, I would definitelly pick Samurai Longbow Archer. Same if your table prefers less encounters per long rest.

But would I multiclass any of them: Truth to be told the Fighter next big capstone after level 11 (Extra Attack) is level 17 and 20, so one more Action Surge and Extra Attack.

However dipping 3 levels of Gloom Stalker for 12/3 build gives you a huge benefits for levels 15-20, and on level 20 you still get Action Surge. Is 3 levels of Gloom Stalker worth of Extra Attack however? Depends, I think if you find your campaigns to take you many times into dark places (dungeons, tombs, underdark etc.) or you fight in the night quite a lot, then I think free invisibility and advantage is worth it.

So that's for my analysis. I am eager to hear your thoughts about probably two strongest archery builds in 5E.
 
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[MENTION=6983731]Benny89[/MENTION]

1. You are vastly overrating darkvision for an archer. Darkvision only has a range of 60ft.
2. You only use precision dice when you have a "near miss". It's fairly unlikely you will have more than 2 near misses ever and having more than 3 is a tiny percent chance.

Analysis
You will turn about 80% of misses in a day into hits with precision attack.
Without elven accuracy the Samarui will turn 25% of his total attacks into additional hits. With elven accuracy it's about 35-40%.

This still makes precision attack better and that's without factoring in the difference in going crossbow expertise vs going elven accuracy.

So let's do an actual analysis at level 11.

BattleMaster 11 vs Samauri 11.

I'll assume 6 combats a day that last 4 rounds each.

Samauri will be a half-elf with elven accuracy + sharpshooter + 20 dex (uses a longbow)
Battlemaster will be variant human with sharpshooter + crossbow expertise + 20 dex (uses a handcrossbow)

At level 11 I'm getting that the battlemaster does about 20-30% more damage per day than the Samauri. (That's without crits calculated which will give the samauri a small advantage but not overly much. So maybe 15-25% estimated)
 

Benny89

Visitor
@Benny89

1. You are vastly overrating darkvision for an archer. Darkvision only has a range of 60ft.
2. You only use precision dice when you have a "near miss". It's fairly unlikely you will have more than 2 near misses ever and having more than 3 is a tiny percent chance.

Analysis
You will turn about 80% of misses in a day into hits with precision attack.
Without elven accuracy the Samarui will turn 25% of his total attacks into additional hits. With elven accuracy it's about 35-40%.

This still makes precision attack better and that's without factoring in the difference in going crossbow expertise vs going elven accuracy.

So let's do an actual analysis at level 11.

BattleMaster 11 vs Samauri 11.

I'll assume 6 combats a day that last 4 rounds each.

Samauri will be a half-elf with elven accuracy + sharpshooter + 20 dex (uses a longbow)
Battlemaster will be variant human with sharpshooter + crossbow expertise + 20 dex (uses a handcrossbow)

At level 11 I'm getting that the battlemaster does about 20-30% more damage per day than the Samauri. (That's without crits calculated which will give the samauri a small advantage but not overly much. So maybe 15-25% estimated)
Did you count that Samurai after level 10 start each fight with free Fighting Spirit? Also how many short rests did you count?

Because let's see. 6 combat, 4 turn each. That is 24 turns. At level 11 Fighter has 3 attacks, BM has 4. That is 4x24 = 96 attacks. You said that BM will turn 80% of misses into hits. At level 11 he has 5x d10 superiority dices.

So he made 96 attacks with 5 dices and turned 80% of his misses into hits? 5 dices are 5 precision shots. So he only missed like 5-10 shots out of 96? He would have to take like 2-3 short rests.

Could please show some more precise details? I don't see how 5 dices worked so well for 96 attacks.
 
Did you count that Samurai after level 10 start each fight with free Fighting Spirit?
yes

Also how many short rests did you count?
2

Because let's see. 6 combat, 4 turn each. That is 24 turns. At level 11 Fighter has 3 attacks, BM has 4. That is 4x24 = 96 attacks. You said that BM will turn 80% of misses into hits. At level 11 he has 5x d10 superiority dices.

So he made 96 attacks with 5 dices and turned 80% of his misses into hits? 5 dices are 5 precision shots. So he only missed like 5-10 shots out of 96? He would have to take like 2-3 short rests.
No. I said of the 15 times he uses superiority dice for precision attack that 80% of those uses become hits. That's about 12 extra hits for such a fighter.

Could please show some more precise details? I don't see how 5 dices worked so well for 96 attacks.
Your chart listed 15 because it's 2 short rests and 5 dice per rest. That's 15 dice total.
 
If you make 100 attacks then on average you will miss by 1 a total of 5 times and miss by 2 a total of 5 times and miss by 3 a total of 5 times. If you use your dice when you miss by 1-3 then you on average have a 100% chance to cause 5 misses by 1 to turn to hits and have a 90% chance to cause the 5 misses by 2 to become hits and an 80% chance to cause the 5 misses by 3 to become hits. That's actually more like a 90% chance instead of 80% chance that I estimated earlier...

Either way it results in 12+ misses becoming hits.
 

Benny89

Visitor
If you make 100 attacks then on average you will miss by 1 a total of 5 times and miss by 2 a total of 5 times and miss by 3 a total of 5 times. If you use your dice when you miss by 1-3 then you on average have a 100% chance to cause 5 misses by 1 to turn to hits and have a 90% chance to cause the 5 misses by 2 to become hits and an 80% chance to cause the 5 misses by 3 to become hits. That's actually more like a 90% chance instead of 80% chance that I estimated earlier...

Either way it results in 12+ misses becoming hits.
Nice, thank you. That makes more sense now :)
 
Nice, thank you. That makes more sense now :)
So now thnik about the Samauri…. if a Samauri gets advantage on 27 attacks then how many extra attacks does he land? Assuming a 50% chance to hit then he would land 13.5 attacks. Advantage would grant an additional 6.75 attacks to land. Even with elven accuracy it's only like +10 attacks landing.

(Example was at 50% chance to hit)
 

Benny89

Visitor
So now thnik about the Samauri…. if a Samauri gets advantage on 27 attacks then how many extra attacks does he land? Assuming a 50% chance to hit then he would land 13.5 attacks. Advantage would grant an additional 6.75 attacks to land. Even with elven accuracy it's only like +10 attacks landing.

(Example was at 50% chance to hit)
Would you recommend multiclassing BM crossbow fighter after level 12 or stick to pure?
 

Benny89

Visitor
@Benny89

1. You are vastly overrating darkvision for an archer. Darkvision only has a range of 60ft.
2. You only use precision dice when you have a "near miss". It's fairly unlikely you will have more than 2 near misses ever and having more than 3 is a tiny percent chance.

Analysis
You will turn about 80% of misses in a day into hits with precision attack.
Without elven accuracy the Samarui will turn 25% of his total attacks into additional hits. With elven accuracy it's about 35-40%.

This still makes precision attack better and that's without factoring in the difference in going crossbow expertise vs going elven accuracy.

So let's do an actual analysis at level 11.

BattleMaster 11 vs Samauri 11.

I'll assume 6 combats a day that last 4 rounds each.

Samauri will be a half-elf with elven accuracy + sharpshooter + 20 dex (uses a longbow)
Battlemaster will be variant human with sharpshooter + crossbow expertise + 20 dex (uses a handcrossbow)

At level 11 I'm getting that the battlemaster does about 20-30% more damage per day than the Samauri. (That's without crits calculated which will give the samauri a small advantage but not overly much. So maybe 15-25% estimated)
Btw. do you have AnyDice math for that [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION]? I would like to save that somewhere and also show a friend who asked for it. Thank you!
 
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Btw. do you have AnyDice math for that [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION]? I would like to save that somewhere and also show a friend who asked for it. Thank you!
No but it’s just averages.
If you roll 100 attacks then you will roll each number on the d20 on average 5 times.
If you use your superiority dice on precision attack on the dice that you miss by 1 then that’s 5 hits.
Etc.
 
The Tank that stands in front of the archer and keeps the enemies off him so he can shoot.

In either case You are the tank. You have high hp and good ac. It’s part of the reason I recommend moving into near melee and shooting from there once you take crossbow expertise.
 

delph

Explorer
Hi, I'm reading, many times here, about elven accuracy, but I don't know what is it and where I can found it. I have PHB and XGE (in PDF, may be incomplete).
 

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