Elven Trance, Spell Scrolls, Grappling & More: New Sage Advice

Jeremy Crawford's September Sage Advice column has appeared, and it deals with elven traces, thief features, various combat questions, plus a couple of queries about spells and scrolls. As usual, these questions and answers have also been added to the Sage Advice Compendium. "Elven Trance, spell scrolls, grappling, and other rules bits. This month, we touch on several rules questions that have come up quite a few times over the past year." (thanks to Ghost Matter for the scoop)

 

[Dausuul]

He can be wrong with his rulings if Sage Advice says something else.

If the DM and players have agreed that Sage Advice should govern their games, then Sage Advice can overrule the DM. Otherwise, the rules in the books you've got in front of you are "the rules," the DM has final say on interpretation, and anything else is advisory, even the "official" rulings of Sage Advice. The Lucky feat is a good example of where I would consider the SA interpretation wrong.

 

[Fralex]

It can be useful to get a better idea behind a rule's intent, but I think it's important to remember that making a bad call on a minor rule interpretation is OK. If it turns out you made a mistake, just try a different interpretation next time and see if that's any better. D&D is, by design, an incomplete game. The rules may not account for everything a complete adventure will have, and no one expects you to be able to get everything right on the first attempt. There's always going to be a small playtesting element to it, as people encounter situations where rules are unclear. That's OK (as long as it doesn't happen so often as to detract significantly from the experience). Sometimes, it's more of an art than a science. Make some mistakes! They can give you useful information.

 

[cmad1977]

Rulings are there to put a decision to something that isn't clear. Once it's clear, the ruling is no longer intended to be used.

Why that is important is so that when I'm the player, I need something to rely on. I want to think of clever ways to use the rules. If the DM goes along and tells another player he can do something that is completely against the rules or tells me my strategy is no longer allowed because he thinks it's overpowered, I'm instantly losing all enjoyment.

Sage Advice is good because it gives me a tool to prove the DM wrong.

If I were playing in your group, and you shook your sage advice pamphlet at the DM to prove him wrong, I would abandon the group. Rules lawyers are the worst players to play with.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Plus, look at how often Jeremy says, in his Sage Advice answers, "We meant it this way, but it's up to the DM." Or "This is how I would do it if I were DM." Or sometimes even just "We left that up to the DM deliberately."

There simply is no "right way" to play, no set of rules that trumps DM's interpretation or preference, and that was a deliberate design choice. It's a feature, not a bug.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

"This is how I would do it if I were DM."

Jeremy only says this on Twitter but never in an official Sage Advice publication.

And that Jeremy says that certain things are left up to the DM deliberately is actually an indication that not everything is up to the DM.

 

[MG.0]

Jeremy only says this on Twitter but never in an official Sage Advice publication.

And that Jeremy says that certain things are left up to the DM deliberately is actually an indication that not everything is up to the DM.

So what?


From the DMG pg 4:

And as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them.

...and a bit further down the page...

The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game.


Yes, literally everything is up to the DM. If I decide suddenly that wizards are the only people with heavy armor proficiency and rogues must pray for guidance before picking a pocket, and your natural 20 attack roll just missed, that is my perogative as the DM. It is your perogative as a player to not enjoy my game and leave, but to claim I am playing D&D incorrectly is blatantly wrong.

D&D is not Magic:TG.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I just noticed some complication with the clarification on what melee weapon attack and ranged weapon attack means. I think they made an error, because when they originally wrote the rules, they certain meant an attack with a melee weapon and an attack with a ranged weapon with it. If they change it now, the actual modifiers used no longer depend on the weapons but rather on how you use the weapon.

But that wouldn't match up with the description of weapons on page 9 of the basic rules (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/BasicRules_Playerv3.4_PF.pdf):

•For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your Dexterity modifier instead.
•For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead.

And page 60:

Attack Rolls and Damage
You add your Strength modifier to your attack roll and
your damage roll when attacking with a melee weapon
such as a mace, a battleaxe, or a javelin. You use
melee weapons to make melee attacks in hand-to-hand
combat, and some of them can be thrown to make a
ranged attack.[...]
Attack Rolls and Damage
You add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and
your damage roll when attacking with a ranged weapon,
such as a sling or a longbow. You can also add your
Dexterity modifier to your attack roll and your damage
roll when attacking with a melee weapon that has the
finesse property, such as a dagger or a rapier.

Compare to page 73:

Ability Modifier.
The ability modifier used for a melee
weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used
for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that
have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I just noticed some complication with the clarification on what melee weapon attack and ranged weapon attack means. I think they made an error, because when they originally wrote the rules, they certain meant an attack with a melee weapon and an attack with a ranged weapon with it. If they change it now, the actual modifiers used no longer depend on the weapons but rather on how you use the weapon.

But that wouldn't match up with the description of weapons on page 9 of the basic rules (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/BasicRules_Playerv3.4_PF.pdf):


And page 60:


Compare to page 73:

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. Where is the problem?

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. Where is the problem?

The first two parts of the rules would indicate that the weapon type dictate the modifier used, whereas the last part would indicate it depends on the attack type, regardless of what weapon you use.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The first two parts of the rules would indicate that the weapon type dictate the modifier used, whereas the last part would indicate it depends on the attack type, regardless of what weapon you use.

Eh... no?

Melee weapons are the ones on the Melee Weapon tables, and you use strength for the attack roll unless it is a finesse weapon.
Ranged weapons are the ones on the Ranged Weapon tables, and you use dexterity for the attack roll unless it is a finesse weapon.
The thrown property is used to note weapons that can be used in order to make a ranged attack, even if they aren't a ranged weapon.

The game is very consistent about that, and I'm not seeing any contradiction of it in the bits you posted.