Elven Trance, Spell Scrolls, Grappling & More: New Sage Advice

Jeremy Crawford's September Sage Advice column has appeared, and it deals with elven traces, thief features, various combat questions, plus a couple of queries about spells and scrolls. As usual, these questions and answers have also been added to the Sage Advice Compendium. "Elven Trance, spell scrolls, grappling, and other rules bits. This month, we touch on several rules questions that have come up quite a few times over the past year." (thanks to Ghost Matter for the scoop)

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Eh... no?

Melee weapons are the ones on the Melee Weapon tables, and you use strength for the attack roll unless it is a finesse weapon.
Ranged weapons are the ones on the Ranged Weapon tables, and you use dexterity for the attack roll unless it is a finesse weapon.
The thrown property is used to note weapons that can be used in order to make a ranged attack, even if they aren't a ranged weapon.

The game is very consistent about that, and I'm not seeing any contradiction of it in the bits you posted.

Well, the latest sage advice says that a ranged weapon attack is not an attack with ranged weapon but rather a ranged attack with a weapon. So going by that if you do a ranged attack with a melee weapon it would use dexterity instead of strength. But that goes against the other two paragraphs.

 

[Athinar]

Nooooo, not the "thrown property" of melee weapons not being able to be used with the Rogue's Sneak attack, noooooo

No I can not throw the dagger for a sneak attack

Crawford Grade -D

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Well, the latest sage advice says that a ranged weapon attack is not an attack with ranged weapon but rather a ranged attack with a weapon. So going by that if you do a ranged attack with a melee weapon it would use dexterity instead of strength. But that goes against the other two paragraphs.

Not all ranged weapon attacks are an attack with a ranged weapon, some are a ranged attack with a melee weapon - but they are all referred to as "ranged weapon attack" because there are only four sorts of attack in 5th edition: ranged or melee, weapon or spell, combine one of each set and that's it.

And unless there is the finesse property involved, the ability score used doesn't change from the norm for the weapon type, even if you are making a ranged attack with a melee weapon.

Crawford's statement doesn't contradict that.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Nooooo, not the "thrown property" of melee weapons not being able to be used with the Rogue's Sneak attack, noooooo

No I can not throw the dagger for a sneak attack

Crawford Grade -D

Actually, since you can sneak attack with a finesse weapon.

But since the thrown property doesn't make a melee weapon count as a ranged weapon when you throw it, you can't by strict reading of the rules sneak attack with a handaxe, light hammer, spear, or trident.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

some are a ranged attack with a melee weapon - but they are all referred to as "ranged weapon attack"

That's exactly the problem. If a ranged attack with a melee weapon would be a ranged weapon attack, then it would use the dexterity modifier according to the third rule part I quoted, even if it didn't have the Finesse property. Whereas the other two rule parts are pretty clear that if you use a melee weapon no matter what kind of attack you do with it, it uses the strength modifier, unless it has the Finesse property.

 

[Hriston]

Melee weapons used for ranged attacks have the thrown property which breaks the rule.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Not all melee weapons have the thrown property. The improvised weapon rule allows you to throw weapons that don't have the thrown property.

 

[Hriston]

Then you're making a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

[MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford What's the 1st rule of Sage Advice? The DM—not the rulebooks or the sage—is the game's adjudicator. The 2nd rule? Don't forget the 1st. #DnD

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

That's exactly the problem. If a ranged attack with a melee weapon would be a ranged weapon attack, then it would use the dexterity modifier according to the third rule part I quoted, even if it didn't have the Finesse property.

No, you just aren't reading that rules passage correctly since it specifically states "weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule." Which means that a ranged attack with a melee weapon can be, just as the rules state, an attack that uses strength modifier even though it is a ranged weapon attack if it has the finesse (which lets you choose dexterity or strength regardless of which type of weapon the weapon is) or thrown (which specifically has you use the same ability modifier you would when making a melee attack with the weapon even though you are actually making a ranged attack with it).

You are inventing a contradiction that doesn't actually exist.