Elven Trance, Spell Scrolls, Grappling & More: New Sage Advice

Jeremy Crawford's September Sage Advice column has appeared, and it deals with elven traces, thief features, various combat questions, plus a couple of queries about spells and scrolls. As usual, these questions and answers have also been added to the Sage Advice Compendium. "Elven Trance, spell scrolls, grappling, and other rules bits. This month, we touch on several rules questions that have come up quite a few times over the past year." (thanks to Ghost Matter for the scoop)

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Then you're making a ranged attack with an improvised weapon.

Which would just bring up another question: Is an improvised weapon a melee weapon or a ranged weapon or neither?
[MENTION=52548]Aaron[/MENTION]
I don't get why you don't see the obvious contradiction, but maybe it helps if you think of an example: A character with STR 8 and DEX 16 throws a warhammer at an enemy. How much damage does it deal? I say it's "1d4-1" because it uses the STR modifier as it's a melee weapon. My player says according to the new sage advice a ranged weapon attack is a ranged attack with a weapon, it does not need to be a ranged weapon, which would apply to throwing a warhammer and according to page 73 of the rules, for ranged weapon attacks, dexterity is used by default, so it should be 1d4+3.
[MENTION=81075]Edwin[/MENTION]
Of course, I already settled it with my player, just wanted to point out that the new sage advice creates a contradiction.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Which would just bring up another question: Is an improvised weapon a melee weapon or a ranged weapon or neither?

Ask the DM, improvised weapon rules are vague by design.

I don't get why you don't see the obvious contradiction

Because the contradiction is not "obvious" so much as imagined, but I see why it is that you imagine the contradiction as I have enough memory of the general posts regarding DMing and the rules to know that any time the rules intentionally leave the corner cases to the DM's judgement you get hung up on how the rules are meant to work.

but maybe it helps if you think of an example: A character with STR 8 and DEX 16 throws a warhammer at an enemy. How much damage does it deal?

As much damage as the DM determines that it does. That's how the improvised weapon rules work.

I say it's "1d4-1" because it uses the STR modifier as it's a melee weapon. My player says according to the new sage advice a ranged weapon attack is a ranged attack with a weapon, it does not need to be a ranged weapon, which would apply to throwing a warhammer and according to page 73 of the rules, for ranged weapon attacks, dexterity is used by default, so it should be 1d4+3.

If you are the DM and you say it's 1d4-1 because it is strength based, then you are 1) correct, 2) 100% in line with the written rules, and 3) 100% in line with the sage advice clarification.

Your player is having trouble determining that Seamus is red-headed and Irish, but that doesn't mean that all people who are Irish are red-headed: ranged weapon attacks generally use dexterity because they are generally a weapon attack made with a ranged weapon. Not all ranged weapon attacks use dexterity, though, because some of them are made with non-finesse melee weapons with the thrown property (which can be granted by the weapons table itself, or by the DM in their adjudication of improvising by throwing a weapon that doesn't actually have the thrown property).

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Yeah, but the rule doesn't say that it's usually the case, it says it IS dexterity:

the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity

I guess you could solve it by adding "Improvised weapons are an exception to that rule" to that paragraph, rather than only referring to finesse and thrown.

And I'm not sure if I can add the "thrown" property to an improvised weapon. The rules are worded in a way that I can either decide that a player uses an object like an object of the weapons table "Throwing this broken piece of glass is like throwing a dagger, so the dagger stats apply to it" or that the player uses an existing weapon in a way it isn't intended to "You throw the warhammer even though it does not have the thrown property". The latter just says it does 1d4 damage, but is not very clear what else is applied to it. If the weapon automatically becomes a 1d4 weapon with thrown property, then all weapons with 1d4 damage could just have the thrown property added to them because it makes no difference. Throwing a club or sickle for example would still deal full damage, so they are effectively the same as a light hammer. Maybe they really meant 1d4 with no modifier applied? But I'd still need to know the attack modifier used unless that's just 1d20 too. /hm

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Yeah, but the rule doesn't say that it's usually the case, it says it IS dexterity:

You can't read only one sentence and say that is what the rules say - you have to actually read all the other sentences that are included that create exceptions within the rule, look at all those details as a whole, and then you can see what the rules say.

The rules absolutely do say that it's usually, but not always, the case that a ranged weapon attack uses dexterity modifier.

And I'm not sure if I can add the "thrown" property to an improvised weapon.

I'm sure you can, you said you are the DM, and the rules of the game that you are a stickler about following to a "t" actually say specifically that the DM can do whatever they want to the rules.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Even if I'm DM, my players (at least those that argue with me about the rules in the first place) wouldn't be very happy with "I'm the DM so I decide it is like that" replies. So I always try to explain it using sage advice and rule quotes.

 

[MG.0]

Even if I'm DM, my players (at least those that argue with me about the rules in the first place) wouldn't be very happy with "I'm the DM so I decide it is like that" replies. So I always try to explain it using sage advice and rule quotes.

Here's what I do:

In game:
If a player has a reasonably short question or clarification about a rule, then I will listen. However, I reserve the right to override any discussion and make a snap ruling. I don't abide arguing about rules during the game - it destroys the flow and fun for everyone. That's a great way to guarantee you will never be invited back to my table.

Outside the game:
I am open to longer questions and debates and sometimes change my mind, but as the DM I always have the final say, even if it directly contradicts what is in the books. Even though I am open to discussion, I generally don't feel the need to defend my position and don't tolerate arguing. Either the player accepts my interpretation, or they don't play in my game. If I do go far as to directly contradict a written rule, I ensure all players are aware of it at the start of a campaign.

 

[Hriston]

Which would just bring up another question: Is an improvised weapon a melee weapon or a ranged weapon or neither?

An improvised weapon could be anything. It could be a ranged weapon used to make a melee attack, or a melee weapon, without the thrown property, used to make a ranged attack. It could also be an object not normally classified as a weapon when used to make any kind of attack. Its original identity isn't really important, only that it is being used in a way it was not designed for.

A warhammer is a melee weapon, and you can use it to make a melee weapon attack. If you use it for a ranged weapon attack, it is subject to the improvised weapon rules. These rules, like many in 5E, are guidelines for the DM to make a ruling because there are an infinite variety of objects that could be used in an attack, and the system needs to be flexible.

To make a ruling on a ranged attack using a war hammer, the first question is whether it resembles another weapon capable of making a ranged attack sufficiently for that weapon's stats to be used. For example, you could make the argument that the warhammer resembles a light hammer enough for someone's proficiency with light hammers to apply to the attack. Personally, I'd rule this is not the case due to the warhammer having the versatile property, indicating it has a handle of sufficient length to grip with two hands. In my opinion, this would preclude the weapon from having sufficient balance for a thrown attack. Likewise, a warhammer lacks the thrusting point of a spear or trident, the only weapons with both the thrown and versatile properties, and so could not be used in the manner of those weapons either.

Having ruled out the possibility that a warhammer resembles a weapon capable of a ranged attack, I would rule that the attacker's proficiency bonus does not apply and that the ability modifier for the attack is dexterity, due to the unwieldy nature of the object used and the simple fact that it's a ranged attack. The attack would deal an unmodified 1d4 bludgeoning damage because the weapon lacks the thrown property, although you could rule that an ability modifier applies if that seems reasonable, but I don't think I would.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Interesting, so you'd apply the dexterity modifier too but only to the attack roll and not to the damage roll! That's a variant I haven't heard of yet.

Seems like every DM does it different which is just another proof that the rules are not clear enough about it.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Seems like every DM does it different which is just another proof that the rules are not clear enough about it.

No.

Just, No.

Every DM doing a thing that is clearly left up to the DM's discretion differently is proof that the rule is clear that the DM should do what they feel works. It's nothing even resembling proof that the rules aren't clear enough about what to do.

It's perfectly fine if you want to say you don't like that it is left up to the DM, but don't go saying it's "unclear" because you might end up wasting time some dev could have spent with some actually unclear rule or some new rules content with an end result of it only being even more clear than it already is that it is intentionally up the the DM, and you still not satisfied with that.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

Left up to the DM is unclear. And I think they should spend some time clarifying it. I don't know any other rule at the moment that needs clarification more.