Ema's RPG Sheet Website down...

[chriton227]

The ISP 'DELETED' everything? Instead of just taking it offline?

That is one of the dumbest freaking things I have ever heard of an ISP doing, and depending on their local laws probably quite literally illegal. No matter the C&D.

Doubly especially if it becomes a lawsuit.

What the freaking stars did they think they were doing?

I don't think the ISP did anything, and I don't think they are the ones who received the C&D (except maybe to forward it to Ema). The site owner contact information is freely available in the WHOIS for the domain, and usually the C&D doesn't go to the hosting provider unless the site owner is unresponsive.

 

[chriton227]

If you don't understand that stealing intellectual property is stealing, there's no point in having a discussion.

Well, the US Supreme Court disagrees with you on that. According to Dowling v. United States (Dowling v. United States (1985) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia):

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.'

RIAA and MPAA would like us all to believe that infringement = theft, but in the US legal system that just isn't true.

 

[chriton227]

If the site wasn't legal, shouldn't you take this up with Ema? In this transaction you were Ema's customer, not WotC's.

-O

Actually, I contacted Ema to ask about getting at least the raw data from my characters (name, descriptions, etc.) and was informed that as part of the agreement with WotC, all of the data (including my data) had been deleted. So apparently WotC had no problems dictating the destruction of my intellectual property while they were defending their own. I don't see how WotC could have any legal standing to request the destruction of data that was in no way their intellectual property (unless they copyrighted the names Cormax, Darya, Marcus, Daja, and others).

Delete the infringing IP? Fine. Delete references to spell names and copyrighted/trademarked class names (although wizard, fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, etc. are not WotC proprietary terms)? Fine too. Delete character names, descriptions, backgrounds, data/terms like level, armor class, movement, strength, dexterity etc. that are used across a large number of games? That's just not kosher to me.

 

[dvvega]

@chriton227 re: your reference to the Dowling case.

Actually according to Dowling himself he infringed copyright (not challenging those charges). What he did challenge was the concept of stolen goods since he didn't steal the music, the records, or packaging that he sent via the postal service.

So even the person himself knows he was doing something illegal with copyright fraud. The supreme court's ruling creates an issue with file sharing since there is a near inability to detect if the files being shared are stolen or obtained legally - I buy a CD, I put it into iTunes (or other music program), I let you share files on my computer - to whit I have not dealt with stolen property and you have not either. Thus the court's ruling is that we haven't engaged in anything illegal regarding stolen goods.

We have still infringed copyright law. Dowling did not get that part of his charges overturned or challenged.

There was also a poster who mentioned something about copyright laws in Italy and if it allowed Ema to do what he did. Yes each country has their own copyright laws, however each country as also agreed with each other country that copyright laws from external places will be enacted inside their borders.

This is why certain countries get away with bootlegging movies and music because they have not signed such agreements and given no such assurances.

From what I have read about Ema's case (and from looking at a sheet I printed out from his website a while ago) he has infringed on WOTCs copyright. Thus they are within their rights to protect their copyright across any country borders that have made the copyright agreements. This includes Italy.

Has he stolen from WOTC? No. He has bought a book, scanned/typed in material within that book, and placed it in an accessible location. So it would fall under the Dowling rulings.

Has he infringed copyright? Yes.


D

 

[xechnao]

Actually, I contacted Ema to ask about getting at least the raw data from my characters (name, descriptions, etc.) and was informed that as part of the agreement with WotC, all of the data (including my data) had been deleted. So apparently WotC had no problems dictating the destruction of my intellectual property while they were defending their own. I don't see how WotC could have any legal standing to request the destruction of data that was in no way their intellectual property (unless they copyrighted the names Cormax, Darya, Marcus, Daja, and others).

Could this be considered as derivative work?

 

[roguerouge]

For those dissatisfied with the current copyright system, I encourage people to look at copyleft alternatives: Creative Commons and, specifically, Licenses - Creative Commons .

 

[darjr]

I don't think the ISP did anything, and I don't think they are the ones who received the C&D (except maybe to forward it to Ema). The site owner contact information is freely available in the WHOIS for the domain, and usually the C&D doesn't go to the hosting provider unless the site owner is unresponsive.

Read the comment in the thread pointed to by Old Timer. It is from Ema and he states that he was told the ISP followed the C&D from WotC to the letter and stupidly, like freaking sheep, deleted the data.

 

[Legildur]

Read the comment in the thread pointed to by Old Timer. It is from Ema and he states that he was told the ISP followed the C&D from WotC to the letter and stupidly, like freaking sheep, deleted the data.

Including regular backups???

 

[Hussar]

So, we have a pretty clear case of IP violation. There's all sorts of IP being violated that isn't covered under the OGL or the GSL. And people have a problem with a company sending a C&D about it?

So, where does it cut off? Can I put up every feat created by Sword and Sorcery Press on the En World Wiki? How about the stuff that I know for a fact that isn't covered by OGL? If I include the flavour text of all the spells in Relics and Rituals, is that perfectly okay with people that I put it up on the En World Wiki? And, should Morrus just look the other way? After all, I'm just providing a fan service.

Actually, I contacted Ema to ask about getting at least the raw data from my characters (name, descriptions, etc.) and was informed that as part of the agreement with WotC, all of the data (including my data) had been deleted. So apparently WotC had no problems dictating the destruction of my intellectual property while they were defending their own. I don't see how WotC could have any legal standing to request the destruction of data that was in no way their intellectual property (unless they copyrighted the names Cormax, Darya, Marcus, Daja, and others).

Delete the infringing IP? Fine. Delete references to spell names and copyrighted/trademarked class names (although wizard, fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, etc. are not WotC proprietary terms)? Fine too. Delete character names, descriptions, backgrounds, data/terms like level, armor class, movement, strength, dexterity etc. that are used across a large number of games? That's just not kosher to me.

I would guess that that entails FAR more work than is feasible. After all, you'd have to go into every single document, delete the offending material and then resave it and forward it to you. This is quite likely too much work to be reasonable considering the number of files you're looking at.

And, let's not forget, the sheets you were using were NEVER kosher. They were copyright infringing right from the get go. Caveat Emptor comes to mind here. You had to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the sheets you were using were in violation of IP. You chose to ignore that fact and continue to use them. I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for the loss of your data.

 

[Dire Bare]

Delete the infringing IP? Fine. Delete references to spell names and copyrighted/trademarked class names (although wizard, fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, etc. are not WotC proprietary terms)? Fine too. Delete character names, descriptions, backgrounds, data/terms like level, armor class, movement, strength, dexterity etc. that are used across a large number of games? That's just not kosher to me.

I got no sympathy for ya, sorry. I just can't get worked up that you lost the data to several characters for a roleplaying game. Your own "intellectual property"?!?! Please.

I loved Ema's sheets, they were gorgeous. But from the day I found them, downloaded them, and stared using them, I knew their days were numbered . . . and I was/am okay with that.

Ema's a great guy, a fan, and did what he did for the love of the game and not for profit. Doesn't change the fact that what he did was illegal, wrong, and unwise.

I continue to feel WotC is a damn fine company that treats its fans well and puts out great product. Do they make mistakes from time to time? Hell yes! But this was not one of them.